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p>James Davis served in the CRS Office of Technical Assistance as an Administration of Justice Specialist from 1985 - 1992.
There are 2 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2, and Davis Summary. This is Part 2.
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Bill Froehlich (00:01): Good afternoon, James. It's good to see you again. Today is May 17th, 2022, and this conversation builds upon the conversation we had back in January for the CRS oral history project revisited. This is our second and probably final conversation together because of the role you played during your service at CRS in the mid-eighties to early nineties, some of the questions are notable to you that we've asked some of other oral history participants. So let's start with this set of questions... Were you engaged at CRS in providing conciliation or mediation services for street or community oriented processes? And what I mean by that is, did you engage in conciliation or mediation during protests when you were on the ground?
James Davis (00:55): Uh, no, not necessarily.
Bill Froehlich (00:58): Well, when you say not necessarily, can you expand on that?
James Davis (01:01): Well, I did. I responded to a couple of situations in New York, to assist... the New York field office... But that was basically marshaling and crowd control kinds of assignments.
Bill Froehlich (01:27): And when you were engaged there, what were your goals for involvement?
James Davis (01:33): Basically, again, marshaling and crowd control. Ok. The New York field office had several events back in those days, the late eighties, early nineties, that were...they were engaged in, and they needed some additional staff to provide coverage for the events. So several of us from headquarters, you know, went and supported that effort.
Bill Froehlich (02:13): And when you were marshaling and my internet connections unstable. So let me know if you can't hear me, what were you doing while you were marshaling? Were you observing protestors? Were you keeping protestors separate from one another? Could you tell me more?
James Davis (02:27): Yeah, both observative protestors, observative behavior of the various groups, ensuring that...the kinds of instructions that were given initially were being adhered to... making sure that law enforcement was aware of our presence in our role in the event. So, those are the kinds of things that we were involved in.
Bill Froehlich (03:05): Did you, if you were working with advocates, did you see your role as a consultant to help make protests more effective? Or did you see your role as neutral to keep people safe?
James Davis (03:18): Neutral to keep people safe and... in support of... the field staff's role, which was of course to provide the support ... to the organizations... they were there to assist, to keep peace and to allow the event to take place.
Bill Froehlich (03:51): Did you ever try to end or redirect protests or try to deter violence during protests or demonstrations?
James Davis (04:02): Uh, no. Not me personally.
Bill Froehlich (04:06): Did you ever train protestors or advocates in order to help them more effectively and safely advocate for interests and needs?
James Davis (04:22): No, no.
Bill Froehlich (04:22): Right. And in this capacity, you were primarily taking cues from the staff in the New York regional office, or the New York office about how to interact and engage with protestors and law enforcement. Is that correct?
James Davis (04:36): Yes.
Bill Froehlich (04:38): Okay, great. So let's move on to broadly some of the, your work, typically in a typical case, knowing that no case and particularly the ones you have described in the prior oral history is typical. So can you perhaps describe some of the roadblocks you might encounter in your efforts to work with parties effectively and how you would overcome those roadblocks? And again, I recognize in this context that you were providing typically technical assistance to the conciliators who were working on the ground. So you were providing, providing technical assistance specifically with your based on your law enforcement expertise. So what type in that context, what type of roadblocks might you encounter in a typical case?
James Davis (05:27): Well... Thinking back, normally the conciliator would have their case work and their needs for technical assistance already identified. So when they came to OTAS, the office of technical and support, for help they would pretty much have their needs addressed. And... the resources that they requested from us would be provided. So there would not necessarily any roadblocks that we had to overcome, because we were providing the resources to the field.
Bill Froehlich (06:26): And tell me a little bit more and you have in the prior oral history, but tell me again about... some of the resources you did provide in the field.
James Davis (06:35): Yeah, well again... If the field needed to have expert advice in council... and we in OTAS provided that resource, whether it was provided by us individually or whether we identified other consultants... throughout the country to provide those consultants supports for them. If it was some expertise that was being required... of the conciliator or mediator. And we didn't have that in house, we would know... where to go get it. Whether it was... from a administration of justice standpoint, whether it be from a police chief or a superintendent of corrections or based on the case work itself, we would assist in determining, in securing those resources that would help that conciliator resolve that case work.
Bill Froehlich (07:47): So you would leverage your connections within the law enforcement community, if necessary, to bring an outsider. So let's just say I'm based in Columbus, Ohio, and if there were a demonstration or I were the conciliator on the ground here in Columbus, and I needed law enforcement expertise, I would send a message to the national office and say "Hey, look, I need help from... Law enforcement, I need technical assistance." And you would typically provide that help, but if you couldn't or if it was something specific, you would then leverage your contacts to bring someone else in from that you had a relationship with, into the conversation. Am I understanding that right?
James Davis (08:30): That's right. That's right. That's right. And, and we would utilize our relationship with law enforcement organizations, such as the ... police research forum, Perth, or on noble, the National Organization of Black Lord enforce executives, or the IACP the International Association of Chiefs of Police. You know, those are organizations that we constantly... were involved with and supported and they supported us. We attended their conferences, we associated with their memberships. So, we had very good working knowledge of the capabilities that those organizations provided to their membership. And we were able to draw on those relationships to assist our case work in the field.
Bill Froehlich (09:33): Ok. So you leveraged those relationships, you understood the capacity that you yourself had and the capacity that those organizations could have. So could you, if you can, can you give me an example where you leveraged someone at Noble or IACP to bring technical assistance in?
James Davis (09:52): Ok. Give an example. We had... a situation in Greensboro, again, North Carolina. This was a situation with extremist group. I think was Klan activity. And of course... the of the chief of police in, I think Charleston, South Carolina at the time was one of our consultants. And, based on his prior experience with that same type of extremist activity, we secured his support to come to Greensboro, to work with the chief there and his staff in adjusting the concerns that they had around security issues. So again, our knowledge of that chief in South Carolina, and his involvement with that kind of activity gave us opportunity to share that information with the new chief there in Greensboro and it worked out quite well.
Bill Froehlich (11:35): So, this is a great illustration of using similarly situated communities... in the same state that may have similar problems... or similar issues with respect to white supremacists using the information and knowledge base from one community and sharing it with the other... So you went from chief to chief to convey information, the chief in the community that provided the technical assistance. Did you have to pay them, did you just make the request and use relationships through IACP if you recall?
James Davis (12:14): Well... this was more of a mutual aid type of agreement in that they weren't in the same state... They were... members of the same organization. We were all members of the same organization. So there was no compensation involved in that arrangement because of our relationship with one another... the supporting chief was able to provide his travel and assistance without any need or request for compensation.
Bill Froehlich (13:08): Okay. And now I'm embarrassed about my geography problems in the Carolinas. So I'm sorry about that.
James Davis (13:15): But... Charleston is to the south of Greensboro.
Bill Froehlich (13:22): Gotcha. So... that makes sense. So you used these chief to chief member to member relationships, to provide technical assistance to one. Thank you for sharing that. When you were dealing with, it sounds like you had experience providing technical assistance as communities addressed issues with respect to white supremacists. Can you tell me more about that work? Were there any strategies that were particularly effective from CRS's or your perspective with respect to dealing with white supremacists or other similarly situated groups?
James Davis (14:00): Oh yeah. Well, you know, back in the mid eighties to early nineties, you know, a lot of that activity was... we had a lot of involvement with CRS case work. We had marches, some adverse activity that the city went in on. Did I tell you about the one incident down in, I think it was Forsyth, Georgia. Did I tell you about Forsyth, Georgia?
Bill Froehlich (14:51): I don't think so.
James Davis (14:53): Forsyth Georgia. Forsyth Georgia. Cumming, Georgia is a town in Forsyth. Cumming was what you call a sun down town. And it had a reputation of... making sure that blacks are out of town, by Sun Down. If not, they would receive retribution. A member of the SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, Hosea Williams. I think he was the president of the Decatur, Georgia, SCLC at the time. He... started a March through Forsyth to bring attention to the fact that Forsyth was one of the last counties in the nation that was segregated. And he wanted to March through Forsyth to Cummings to bring attention to the fact that Cummings was downtown. He started to March, and of course the Klan, interrupted the March. Pelted the marchers with bottles and bricks and, and, of course injured the marchers.
James Davis (16:32): And, of course that became... a national story. The newspaper and the TV got it. And of course my director, Gil Pompa again sent the OTAS staff, Wally Warfield and myself, and several others from headquarters down to Forsyth. Ozell Sutton And his team came up from Atlanta and... we got... the governor to provide...support with the highway patrol and the national guard, and created... a line of protection throughout Forsyth county for Hosea Williams and his marches to proceed and bring closure to the March through Forsyth into Cummings.
Bill Froehlich (17:42): So your role in providing technical assistance there was that to work with, to interface with the law enforcement that provided that protection for the protest, for the demonstrators, or what other roles did you play there?
James Davis (17:57): Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, my role as a law enforcement official was to, again, work with the local law enforcement and highway patrol in ensuring that their role in providing that line of coverage, for the marches... to proceed orderly through the county was... affected.
Bill Froehlich (18:26): So, in any of your engagements, how did you measure the success of your work in providing technical assistance as part of the team?
James Davis (18:40): Well, again, the measure of success... is the success of the mission itself. The effectiveness of the services that we provided, and... of course the quality of the service... that was provided, or that we provided, all of those things aided in the resolution of the issue that we're being addressed by the mediator or the conciliator at the time.
Bill Froehlich (19:19): So in this time period, the country, perhaps it wasn't as polarized politically as it is now, maybe it was, your institutional memory certainly would be better than mine from this time period. How does political polarization impact your work as providing technical assistance through CRS?
James Davis (19:45): I don't think the nation... was as polarized politically as it is today, I don't think... we had the kinds of polarization throughout the communities, the way that we have today. And that allowed us as third party, dispute resolvers an opportunity to draw from those elements within the community that were supportive of the kinds of resolve that we were trying to bring to a community. Community stability is very, very important. And, of course you had community leaders... and citizenry, back in the day that didn't buy into some of the foolishness... especially from extremism that existed. There was no such thing as QAnon. There was no such thing as Proud Boys. There was no such thing as oathkeepers. I mean, those kinds of phenomenon, just didn't exist back then. I mean, we had... Extremisms, you know, we had the Klan, the Klan was the most prominent, and of course they were the most violent... but they weren't as tolerated in the broader society as extremism is today. Does that make any sense?
Bill Froehlich (21:43): Absolutely. What do you think has contributed to that tolerance for extremism from perspective as a former conciliator or former CRS technical assistance provider?
James Davis (21:58): Well, I think it's... there's a lot of fear in society today. Lot of uncertainty about... life itself about the future and there's a lot of hate... and... those are the common, those kinds of combinations bring about a bad result. Bill you and I talked back, January the fifth. I don't think either one of us. I know I didn't, expect the very next day to be as dramatic as it was. I mean, in our nation's capital. I mean...that's a prime example of what I'm talking about. And we as a nation have gotten to a point where we don't trust leadership, we don't trust leadership at the highest level. We don't... understand, how it is that our democracy, as it's supposed to protect all people in all facets of society is somewhat being compromised. So yeah, we are living in a different time.
Bill Froehlich (23:44): So on January 6th, 2021, obviously there was a transition taking place at that time. And I want to talk to you about changes in federal administrations. I know you were in CRS during the transition from Reagan to Bush one, and I think we're leaving CRS from Bush to Clinton, but do you have any recollection, or can you describe how changes in administrations impacted your work at CRS?
James Davis (24:13): Not at all, not changes in administration. I mean, we were pretty much... even though we went from Republican and from Reagan to Democrat, see what was it, Reagan
Bill Froehlich (24:41): To bush. So two republicans.
James Davis (24:45): ...and then to Clinton. But those turns between Reagan... and Bush one, there was no real significant changes because of the partisan power was the same. And... many of the... second, you know, second and third tier officials that were presidential appointee's and remained the same or came in under those administrations. Again, I was there in the beginning of the Clinton administration and there was very little change in... the way that the government operated. And certainly, even though there was a difference between the presidencies changing... from Republican to Democrat, it didn't affect the types of case work that was being done in the agency... and very little within the department.
Bill Froehlich (26:12): Ok. So during your time, did CRS ever face any pressure to quote "stay in its lane" from other federal agencies like DOJ state or local officials?
James Davis (26:27): Now well, you know, CRS... was pretty much the peacemaker organization and, you know, we had our own carve out, you know, we were expected to be able to respond and be the assessors of dispute and the resolvers of dispute based on the kinds of requirements that were placed on us by the civil rights act of 1960.
Bill Froehlich (27:04): Can you tell me a little bit about the staffing members at CRS when you were there and what sufficient staffing looks like for CRS?
James Davis (27:15): Well, you know, I came to CRS, like I say in 85, and I think the agency had lost a number of the original staffing levels ... that they had previously and from that point onward they've consistently lost staff... And basically, I think from a personal standpoint, because of the lack of interest of resolving situations, by way of dispute resolution. Ok. When... you have attention given to situations that were
James Davis (28:26): Addressed on the front end and not allowed to fester, not allowed to get to a boiling point where things got out of control. That's what CRS did, CRS would address situations from an assessment standpoint, and they would assist in resolving those situations before they got to a boiling point. And I don't think the various administrations have appreciated the level of work that was done back in those days, that...allowed societal issues to be resolved at that level, rather than waiting until they got to the boiling point. Ok. So consequently, the fact that they weren't appreciated, that meant budgets were cut, that meant staffing levels were cut. And it means that... the CRS is down to where they are now from a staffing standpoint. I think.. they're at a level now from a staffing standpoint to where... they've never been before.
James Davis (29:55): And one of the things that this organization that I was telling you about that we belong to CRS, remember, we are trying... to encourage the new administration... to really take a hard look at the staffing of CRS and bring it back to a level of... where it can be effective. Because there's no question, the kinds of things that can be done from a dispute resolution standpoint, Bill, you know, from a mediation and conciliation point of view can be so beneficial to this country.
Bill Froehlich (30:44): Absolutely. Do you think it is present low staffing level CRS has the capacity to do much of that work or are they running from one fire to the next?
James Davis (30:56): Well, they're running from one fire to the next. I mean, I'm going to give you an example. We are in region four where I live. Ok. I live in North Carolina and the conciliator... that works North Carolina is responsible for all of North Carolina and part of Tennessee and Georgia. Ok. So consequently, that person one person is pulled between three states. Now he's in North Carolina today working on the situation that... was brought to his attention several weeks ago. And... he is doing an outstanding job, but he's still only one person. And we have several situations ... throughout the state that would command or demand his attention, but he is still only one person.
Bill Froehlich (32:12): So what would an ideal staffing structure look like? How many people,
James Davis (32:17): Oh, wow.
Bill Froehlich (32:18): How many technical assistance providers look like to you?
James Davis (32:27): The field staff is... I think the field staff would be the most important and having those conciliators or mediators out in the field to address the issues that face the nation. Ok. We had a... process back in the day. I don't know if they use that same process or not, but of course the conciliators alert cases, they go in and assess the cases once they alert it, and then they bring in the resources to address the situation if it rises to the level of resolving. Ok. A lot goes into those three stages of alerting, assessing, and then providing assistance. A regional staff, at least you need to have at least two conciliators assigned to each state. Ok. At least two. Now I don't know what that would look like in terms of overall staffing numbers for CRS, but that's just field staff.
James Davis (34:00): And then your headquarters, I don't know if they have... an office of technical assistance and support now, because that office, back in the day, you had .. two AOJ specialist, you had an education specialist, that person would go in and assist with case work that was involved in the educational processes. And then you had... a journalist, that person worked in terms of...issues that didn't necessarily fall into that education or... that law enforcement bucket and that journalist... was somewhat flexible that they could go in and deal with deal with case work... that was more generic... to the agency, oftentimes that took on... the aspect of extremism. So that person worked a lot with the NAACP and the... Urban League and organizations like that to assist the field staff in dealing with cases that they were faced with.
Bill Froehlich (35:43): Ok. In your capacity providing technical assistance, did you ever interface with the media in positive or negative or have positive or negative experiences working alongside or with the media in connection to cases?
James Davis (36:02): Well, you know, most of the cases that I was involved in were pretty much high profile cases, but we were trained not to necessarily get involved with the media even though the media would... follow the kinds of things that we were doing. And... we did not allow them to be involved with the.. press conferences or whatever was that we were doing, but we had a... PIO. That PIO was pretty much, the go to, as far as press information and that person was assigned to our headquarters level. And... that person's work in concert... with the departments public information officer. So everybody in the department knew what the storyline was going to be coming from the department of justice perspective or from the community relations service of the department of justice. So, we staffers, we didn't make comments, you know, we didn't give interviews, you know, we referred the media to our PIO.
Bill Froehlich (37:35): Great. Do you have any advice for navigating the bureaucracy of CRS and DOJ?
James Davis (37:44): Well, like I said before, I hope that this administration staff up the agency so that the agency can provide the assistance to the nation the way that the way that it needs. We are in some turbulent times now, and I would... encourage that. Again, the work of the community relations service is valuable to this country. And I think if they had the kinds of trained mediators and conciliators, that can provide the kind of... support to the citizens of this country, the way that we did back in the day, it would be, it would be outstanding. This young conciliator that we have working with the, of North Carolina. Now he's a retired JAG officer. He retired from the army came down to Atlanta and was trained by one of our premier conciliators down there, Tom Battle. And... is doing an, I think Tom, you know, Tom. Tommy trained this young man and... he's working with me on... several cases here in North Carolina and doing an outstanding job. That's the kind of nurturing and mentoring that, and you have a whole lot of us old timers out here in the community throughout the United States who are willing to provide that mentoring and nurturing to young people as they come out here and do this kind of work. Yeah.
Bill Froehlich (39:34): So what, as a fall to that, what sources other than mentoring and finding good mentor like yourself or Thomas Battles or Ron Wakabayashi or others I can imagine out there, what sources would you advise someone entering this line of work to observe or review or read?
James Davis (39:55): Well, again, you know, for yourself that good mediation, mediation training, dispute resolution training is key. I don't know... what institutions are available out there now that provide that kind of training. But the alternative dispute resolution is... a resource that, anybody that don't want to be necessarily an attorney, can get involved in and can do a a good job.. at helping being a dispute resolver.
Bill Froehlich (40:41): Great.. thanks for that advice. So you've mentioned a couple of folks who you learned from during your training at CRS and during your time there, Wally Warfield, Ozell Sutton, Bertram Levine, who else did you learn from when you were working with CRS?
James Davis (41:01): Good Lord. I think we all learned from one another, you know, we had again, mediators and conciliators, you know, people like Patricia Glenn... She... was up in Chicago... Oh, you know, it was jus... so many, and again, we learned from one another Bill. Bob Ensley, he was down in... Atlanta, Claude Hall, you know... Tim, what was Tim? He... was in New York,
Bill Froehlich (41:46): Tim Johnson.
James Davis (41:47): Tim Johnson. Yeah, Tim Johnson. Excellent Conciliator. I think... he's still doing some dispute work, up in the Maryland area. But... again... Miguel Hernandez, you know, good guys. Nancy Ferrell out in Texas, you know, I just, it was just, just so many, and like I said before, we all... worked together and learned from one another.
Bill Froehlich (42:35): Thank you for that list. Do you have any, you've sent me some information previously, but do you have any written accounts that you've written yourself with respect to any of the work that you've done with CRS?
James Davis (42:51): No... Not that I want to publish right now. I'm working on my memoirs and... I've not gotten to my CRS days yet. I'm still... stuck in my law enforcement days with the police department, but, I'll get to that, those CRS days, I hope.
Bill Froehlich (43:17): Well, let know, please. So, one of the question I have... A couple other questions I have for you. Is there anything else you want to tell me about your work at CRS?
James Davis (43:29): I enjoyed every minute though. CRS for me was one of the best agencies in the department that I had an opportunity to work in. I did a lot of things in the department, but I think our work with CRS was one of the most enjoyable because I think we provided a level of service to the community that was and... you could... Immediately see the results, the positive results of the work that you were doing, you know? And like I said before, Bill.... I've been a gun to it all my life, but the time that I spent in CRS was a chapter... that I don't mind reliving over and over and over again.
Bill Froehlich (44:28): So can you say just a little bit more about seeing how your work had a positive impact so quickly say just a little bit more about that?
James Davis (44:41): Well... I think it was just the... opportunity that we got to go into situations that were somewhat volatile, and utilizing the skills and the resources that revolt to the incident or the issue. That made the difference, made the difference in the resolution of the situation and made the difference in the lives that we touched. You know, those are the kind of things... that move this country forward and help instill the kinds of trust, societal trust in the systems. Because when you go into a situation, say I'm from the United States government, and I'm here to help, they expect you to help.
Bill Froehlich (45:49): Great. Well, James, I'm going to hit the pause button, but first I want to say thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate you doing this follow up interview. Your perspective on CRS is unique. I think you're the only person part of this revisited project and the original project that's talking specifically about their experience providing technical assistance. And so it's really valuable and I really appreciate, appreciate your time. So I'm going to hit pause.
SUMMARY—
From North Carolina, former employment as a sheriff, veteran of US military
Worked in office of technical assistance and support as administration of justice specialist; retired in 1992—he would help mediators/conciliators make necessary contacts with citizenry, trainings for police departments, bringing in expert advice during intervention
Specifically trained in hostage negotiation and barricade subject activity
Specific case mentioned—newspaper hostages—two NA men took newspaper hostage in NC
Perpetrators trying to bring attention to disenfranchisement / racial profiling of minorities in Robsinson county, NC
After hostage situation diffused, call meeting of all elected county officials and resolved some of the issues raised by perpetrators
Tri-Racial (White, Black, Native) human relations commission established to address issues that had been raised. US gvt created enterprise zones to provide financial resources to minority communities and entrepreneurs—Robinson county became the first enterprise zone
Outcome lasted more than 20 years
As a minority practitoner himself, focused on helping affected parties to understand dynamics of policy procedure and assure them that he was doing all he could to elucidate truth of the situation—being fothright with involved parties was one of his core values while working at CRS
Really focused on humanizing both sides of mediation while on the job, especially when it came to mitigating tension during the intervention
Strategies—building trust with “big stick carriers” or people who have influence on citizens, paying close arrention to body language during mediation work,
Worked with CRS during transition between Reagan/Bush and Bush/Clinton but didn’t experience any significant setbacks to CRS/his career due to shifts in partisan control
Really believes CRS should increase its staffing to address deep-seated polarization growing in our country and growing acceptance of extremism; should utilize interested and retired former CRS employees to train/mentor young people
Absolutely loved his work with CRS because of service to community and tangible positive results that could be achieved relatively quickly
James “Jim” Davis worked in the CRS Office of Technical Assistance and Support as an Administration of Justice Specialist and retired in 1992. In this role, Davis assisted mediators and conciliators during their work on the ground by facilitating connections with the citizenry and bringing in expert advice during interventions, among other tasks. Davis was specifically trained in hostage negotiation and barricade subject activity.
He had the unique opportunity to put these skills into practice when dealing with a situation at a newspaper office in North Carolina in which two Native American men took the newspaper staff hostage. The perpetrators committed this act to bring attention to the disenfranchisement and racial profiling of minority communities in Robinson County, NC. After the hostage situation was diffused, a meeting of elected county officials was called to resolve the issues raised by perpetrators. As a result, a tri-racial (White, Black, and Native American) humans relations commission was established in the county. The United States government created enterprise zones in which minority communities and entrepreneurs received financial assistance and resources, of which Robinson County was the first. The outcomes of this case lasted over twenty years.
As a Black practitioner, Davis could often offer personal experiences during mediations and focused on helping affected parties to understand the dynamics of policy procedure while assuring them that he was doing all he could to uncover the truths of the issues causing tension in communities. Being forthright with involved parties during an intervention was one of Davis’ core values while working with CRS. Throughout his work, Davis focused on humanizing both sides of a mediation, especially when it came to mitigating tension between parties. He took care to build trust with the “big stick carriers” in communities, or those who have the most influence on citizens.
Davis worked with CRS during the transitions between the Reagan/Bush administration and the Bush/Clinton administration, but he did not experience any significant setbacks to his work with CRS as a result of shifts in partisan control.
Davis believes that CRS should increase its staffing to address the deep-seated polarization growing in America, as well as the nation’s growing acceptance of extremism. Davis made the interesting point that CRS could consider utilizing interested and retired former CRS employees to train and mentor the organization’s newcomers.
Davis loved his work with CRS due to its important service to the community and tangible, positive results that could be achieved relatively quickly for their magnitude of impact.
