Patricia Glenn -- Part 2 of 2

Patricia Glenn was a conciliator in the Chicago office of CRS in the 1980s, and then we promoted to the New York office as Regional Director in 1989, where she stayed for ten years before returning to the Chicago office at the end of her CRS career.

There are 2 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2 and a Summary This is Part 2.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3jr71wIGi8

Bill Froehlich (00:00:01): Well, Patricia, thank you so much for joining us again we last had a conversation in January of 2022, and today it is May 23rd, 2022. And we are at the second part of our conversation with Patricia Glenn, in the Civil Rights Mediation Oral History Project revisited. And so, thank you for joining us again today Patricia. I really appreciate your time here... And, look forward to chatting with you. So during our last conversation, you gave us an example of a mediation. You highlighted... An event where you were called in to mediate at a university. You also talked about some of your typical practices in mediation. When you brought people at a table-oriented process, meaning where you sit down, we talk through ground rules, or whether or not they have them, or recall you saying something along the lines of if you're bringing weapons to the conversation, or if you want to overthrow the government, that is not a conversation I'm going to be involved in. That conversation isn't for me. And I really appreciate the way you... frame that. Today I want to talk, start the conversation by talking about what I would refer to as street, work on the street, during protest demonstrations, etc. Does that sound good?

Patricia Glenn (00:01:26): Yeah, Sure.

Bill Froehlich (00:01:28): So, were you involved as a conciliator during protests or demonstrations on the street, perhaps facilitating conversations between parties or, working to keep parties safe while they're able to exercise their first amendment rights, were you involved in that type of work as a conciliator?

Patricia Glenn (00:01:51): So I wasn't. Primarily because most of the work that I had done ... proceeded any of the demonstrations and, you know, I felt that what my real opportunity ought to be to ensure that once the demonstration starts, then people are safe, police, community, you know, whoever. So my efforts were actually before demonstrations.

Bill Froehlich (00:02:26): Ok. So you weren't on the ground during a demonstration, trying to intervene or, doing things, but you would work in advance of a demonstration potentially. So let's just... Let's say you knew that a demonstration was scheduled in Gary, Indiana for two months from today, would you then take steps to do proactive work in Gary? What would you do?

Patricia Glenn (00:02:51): Absolutely. You know, absolutely because...understanding that you...if you just show up then who are the players? You know, what are their positions? You know...where's the real leadership? Because I think sometimes, people would think that the real leadership would be the person who is before the camera and most of the time that was inaccurate. And so that's why I always felt that the work that you do before a demonstration before a meeting, etc, is so important because you get a chance to see personalities, you get a chance to really work on what's your strategy going to be. And then you have a chance if in fact something would go wrong, then you know exactly who you need to approach rather than just go there cold and say, I'm from the department of justice and I'm here to help you.

Bill Froehlich (00:04:01): Great. So how would you do some of that work, would it be a similar process to a table oriented mediation process or were there different strategies for identifying leaders beyond those who were in front of the video camera?

Patricia Glenn (00:04:18): Well, I think it is a combination of both, you know, I was just thinking that. Fortunately, or unfortunately when I was posted to New York, Bensonhurst... was irate because Yusef Hawkins of course was shot. And there was a perception that the police actually, were not making much of an effort to find out who had killed him. And so...actually, we did hear that there was going to be a demonstration. And what... I actually did was to go to Bensonhurst and meet with Reverend Sharpton, who had already assumed the leadership and actually Reverend Sharpton that day was with Yusef Hawkins father. And so when I approached him on the street... to kind of introduce myself and the services really, neither of them were really that enthusiastic about us.

Patricia Glenn (00:05:36): And so, you know, I really kind of talked about, you know, what the services would be but I really honestly sensed something that was brewing.

Patricia Glenn (00:05:50): And I said [to Reverend Sharpton], but you know, I think that this March tomorrow, and I was very candid with him, I've received two or three calls from the police department. And I said, they're concerned that they will not be able to protect you because they don't know how all of ... your folks are going to get there, they're coming on the subway, or they're coming in buses, etc. And so their feeling is that they don't want a bigger problem because they don't have enough staff, enough police.

Patricia Glenn (00:06:33): So that's really why I'm here, I said, not to take a side, but to really look out for your protection because, you know, we don't want other kinds of incidents when everything is so high. And so he said, where are you? And I told him, I said, you know, I've just... gotten here. And I was at a hotel in New York. And I said, here's the information, you know, if you think about it and, you know, you think that we might be helpful, would you call me? And he said, I'll do that. And so, around 10 o'clock that night, he called me at the hotel and he said, I checked you out. You know, you are from Mississippi. I said that's absolutely...correct. And he said, look, this is how people are coming.

Patricia Glenn (00:07:32): And ... he said, you know, that we're there, we're gonna get off in the subway. I said, can you give me the approximate times that they're going to...So we really went over kind of his game plan for, you know, for Bensonhurst. And, luckily that next day that's that Saturday then we did not have a problem. There were enough police out.. Even though, you know, the community... certainly did not welcome all those protestors, nonetheless, there were no incidents. So maybe that's my idea of community mediation.

Bill Froehlich (00:08:19): No, I that's an incredible illustration. When you got that information from the Reverend, did you then convey it to the police? Did you?

Patricia Glenn (00:08:27): Immediately, immediately, immediately,

Bill Froehlich (00:08:31): And do you think...he didn't convey that information to the police because he didn't know they needed it because he didn't trust the police or do you know why he didn't convey that information to the police?

Patricia Glenn (00:08:46): He didn't trust them... I think that's it. I mean, that was after he had had that problem about the girl who had said, ...that she had been attacked. So, you know, Reverend Sharpton, you know ... just did not have the best reputation, particularly with police. And so I think that it was probably on both sides, you know, police did not, you know, think much of him. He didn't think much of the police.

Bill Froehlich (00:09:25): Fascinating. Ok. So you were trusted because he was able to do his background check, you know, in a half a day, essentially. You were able to get a little bit of trust from him to facilitate this conversation.

Bill Froehlich (00:09:40): I recall you had leveraged relationships with other civil rights leaders on occasions to gain entry. For example, the gentleman who was in Chicago and he bought a house in a suburb, you were describing a porch.

And then he came to another conversation later and you had a relationship with him and he called you right?

Patricia Glenn (00:10:04): Right. Rev Farrakhan...

Bill Froehlich (00:10:06): My sister that's right... my sister from DOJ or something

Patricia Glenn (00:10:09): Justice department. Yes.

Bill Froehlich (00:10:12): That's right. Were there other scenarios ... were other ways that you were able to gain entry into conversations, based on relationships, race, ethnicity, or other challenges to gain entry in the conversation say with law enforcement?

Patricia Glenn (00:10:30): Well, I think that, and that's really a strong point, this idea that we don't talk enough. I think when we are really teaching mediation about the race, about the issue of race and ethnicity... when you're having these kinds of meetings. And... I had to go to one of the universities in New York. I mean, in New Jersey and ... it came up. I mean, I think that... we don't think enough about or talk enough about kind of how race is perceived in communities.

Bill Froehlich (00:11:29): Absolutely. And the last conversation you described, how, you know, there was a group of black professors and a group of police.

Patricia Glenn (00:11:37): Same, yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:11:39): Jewish professors and how they each had different perceptions of you, one thought... the black professors thought you were an uncle Tom, that's the word.

Patricia Glenn (00:11:48): Yes.

Bill Froehlich (00:11:49): Words that you ... the Jewish professors thought that you were aligned and you talked about ways that you gained entry in those conversations that was really dynamic. So...with respect to street or community oriented processes, ==did you ever find yourself doing any training? For example, of a self ally, with protest?

Patricia Glenn (00:12:17): Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:12:18): Can you talk a little bit about that?

Patricia Glenn (00:12:20): Oh yeah. I mean, that was just something that was one always on the agenda, if there was a demonstration, you know, we would go in... before, and then actually... talk. With the demonstrators and also with the police, because let me say, I think that sometimes that's why we had a hard sell with the police because we were not seen to be objective. And so, you know, that idea that if you're going to simply ... meet with the community and... discuss what, you know, what you have to do, then you ought to do that same thing with police. Not telling them so much what they're going to do, but more, so this is why you're here. This is why we're kind of at this point in history right now, you know, so... what will be for... Let's just say, you know, what will be the composition of the people of the police who it will be. Will it be young? Old? You know?... Male? Female? So that when... the community sees police, they see that varied police department, the same way that you're going to see that varied community department.

Bill Froehlich (00:14:05): Yeah. So one of the questions, with respect to street processes is if you're working with advocates say to provide self marshaling training, did you see your role as neutral, or did you see a role as a consultant helping them to make their process more effective? And it sounds like... what you just stated, you would offer similar services, not the same services, but similar services to both sides. Is that to ensure your neutrality and impartiality, or is that for another reason?

Patricia Glenn (00:14:36): Sure, sure. It is ... to ensure. Because, you know, otherwise you really don't have mediation... because it is supposed to be a neutral process. But if you're only working with one side, then it's not neutral. And it does not provide for either side kind of the growth that you need, because we're going to leave there, you know, CRS is going to leave. And so what are we leaving behind? What tools are we leaving behind to assist them in the days ahead? I mean, the the oddest one I ever had was when I had to go work with the Klan, the Ku Klux Klan, which was holding a demonstration. And, so it, of course you have to get another zone for that. But, you know, when we actually...drove up. I mean... You hear the chanting and you see them that they're burning the crosses and you see everyone who...has on the klan regalia, you know?

Patricia Glenn (00:16:02): And so, you know, you kind of think, can I do this? You know, given what I know and, you know, etc. So I think that it's a way of really saying "am I really gonna do this job, or have I just been all this time kind of, as they say, shucking and jivng" you know?" And so I actually went in and I met with the grand wizard and it was surreal, because when he came in, he was in full uniform and he took his hood off and sat down, shook my hand, and...I told him what, you know, we did. And he said, I never thought that the department of justice would look out for me, you know, and my sex. And I said, no, you know, justice, as we do this for a community. You're part of the community and, you know, kind of sat and talked to him, you know, about, do you have a strategy?

Patricia Glenn (00:17:07): You know, if this were to, you know, really go awry, you know, what is your strategy? You know, how would you get out? Have you talked to your folks about this deal Internally?

Bill Froehlich (00:18:20): Incredible illustration. I appreciate how you're checking in with yourself, can I perform this service for everyone before you went into that meeting room, in that particular in event, so you went over these questions with him. Were there protestors there as well? And... Did you speak work with protesters or with police at that event who were, you know... Trying to keep people safe.

Patricia Glenn (00:18:51): There were no protesters... There were no community protesters, there were no community protests. I mean, this was not a big rally

Bill Froehlich (00:19:00): Mm-hmm, <affirmative>,

Patricia Glenn (00:19:02): You know, this was not a ... a big rally, but what was surprising was the number of license plates, not from the south, but from... Connecticut and Massachusetts. I mean, places where it's kind of odd that you would see Klan, you know, but that was our experience.

Bill Froehlich (00:19:33): Did you ever, when you're doing some of these preparatory meetings before demonstrations or protests, did you ever try to help advocates or demonstrators shift their plan? You were... you kind of, it sounds like we talked about in your prior conversation, you were really testing the reality, just like you described with this person from the Klan. You know, what if something goes wrong? Have you talked to your people? Have you done this when you were meeting with protestors in advance, in demonstrations ... you were asking similar questions? Were you trying to help urge them to shift parade routes or talk to police about demonstration routes? What did those conversations look like?

Patricia Glenn (00:20:18): Well... I mean, the first question actually ought to have been, have you spoken to the police?

Patricia Glenn (00:20:30): Yeah. I mean, really. That really ought to have been, you know, because... We were not there to take the place of the police. And I think that's why a lot of times there was animosity for us with the police, because that was the perception. And so, you know, that's why I think it was so important to stress, you know, have you had any discussion...with the police and it's not so much to change what they want to do. But to get them to understand...that you're kind of in this together. You may be on different sides, but this is an impact on your community. You live here, the police live here. So you know, that's why it's important for, you know, to say, have you spoken with the police? A lot of the times the answer would be no.

Bill Froehlich (00:21:37): Right. Ok. That was the starting point. What other issues did you go over with with demonstrators? If you can recall?

Patricia Glenn (00:21:46): Well, you know, I mean... Do you have Marshals? ... What have you trained your marshals to do? Ok. Not just, you know, here... What have you trained your marshals to do, you know, are they going to walk on the outside...of the demonstration? Because ... and we try to explain this so that if there is an incident, you won't be caught in the middle, you will be able on the outside. So then you can help direct. You see ... rather than someone trying to look for you...Have you really assigned kind of numbers or alphabet, so that if there's an incident, then you'll say, well, wait a minute, where's Joe? So, that you have, you know, some way... of seeing are all of my folks accounted for and that really becomes, you know, important, you know, where were they? You know, because what we talked about is, now this should be your vantage point during this demonstration.

Bill Froehlich (00:23:07): Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Patricia Glenn (00:23:09): You know, so that if something, and most of the time they didn't have anything. But it's the idea that we're helping them with pre-planning.

Bill Froehlich (00:29:19): Right. Ok, great. Well, I'm going to transition to...some... looking broadly, at typical cases, knowing that there no typical cases at CRS, but really, you know, we're trying to think more broadly about cases. So you've described some roadblocks you encountered, for example, gaining entry into a conversation, you described it in the university context, you described it with Reverend Sharpton and a few minutes ago. What other roadblocks did you encounter in your efforts to work effectively? How did overcome them?

Patricia Glenn (00:24:00): The greatest roadblock all the time is who wants to be seen as the leadership? And that's, you know, because I think that's the real issue. Because a lot of times who ... was perceived that the issue was someone just very new. So that, there was no way to kind of trace in the in the past, what might they have done. You know, what... knowledge do they have? What experience do they have? And so, and that's... one of the reasons why these pre-meetings are so important because you really do need to get a feel for personalities. Because if you don't, then once you actually get to the table and begin it, whether you get in the street and begin it, you have no real way if something goes wrong, then to be able to get to someone to say, wait a minute, I thought that you are going do this instead of that. Or, you know, this is not what you're going to do on either side, not just on the community for the police also.

Bill Froehlich (00:25:40): So having those pre conversations, understanding who wants to be seen as a leader and who the real leaders are as well, not just the person in front of the TV camera, something you mentioned earlier. I wonder... I know you, given you retired about 15 years ago, perhaps this didn't apply to you, but in the current moment, there are for example, black lives matter aligned groups might not have formal leaders. They might be leaderless, or they might have informal leaders. How would you work with an organization like that to identify, to overcome the roadblock as you've described it?

Patricia Glenn (00:26:24): Well, I think part of what you'd have to do, is a more in depth analysis with the rest of the people. So that somehow you can kind of...and it's dicey because what you're really trying to ask someone is how do you define leadership?

Patricia Glenn (00:26:51): You see and so you're absolutely right. I mean, that's, I think been one of the issues with a lot of the new emerging leadership that I don't know if it's leadership, I don't know kind of what it is sometimes, but you'll get different messages depending on who's speaking. And I think that that's... really kind of worrisome and also kind of dangerous because I think that's the reason that you need to have all those meetings and really kind of say, ok. And really talk to them, because... What if something goes wrong?

Bill Froehlich (00:27:47): So what other roadblocks did you encounter? This roadblock is who wants to be seen as leadership, What else?

Patricia Glenn (00:27:56): Well, I think once you...well, partly is always new leadership.

Bill Froehlich (00:28:09): Mm-hmm

Patricia Glenn (00:28:09): You know, and that was really one of the things that kind of happened, in... one of the cases, because new leadership kept on coming to the table. And, so, you know, every time that you'd have . . . That, you know, we'd say, "Well, you know, I thought that... you did not...this is who you wanted to be at the table." Yeah but, you know, then...we found someone and so that becomes a difficulty because after all we can't say "Then this is all you can have" or you can't say it openly but, you know, so how do you do that? And that's the skill.

Bill Froehlich (00:29:08): And what do you mean when you say you can't say it openly?

Patricia Glenn (00:29:12): Well, I wouldn't say that an open meeting.

Bill Froehlich (00:29:18): OK. But in a conversation perhaps?

Patricia Glenn (00:29:21): Yes. I mean, I just wouldn't, because I'm telling you the first thing that would happen is someone say, DOJ has said, we can't have.... You see, and that's why I'm saying... No, no, no.

Bill Froehlich (00:29:39): That connects. That connects back to your ground rules that connects back to the... you're not reframing what the parties have said. That philosophy is consistent. Are there any other roadblocks you want identify?

Patricia Glenn (00:29:58): No, because I think once, you know, once you talk about kind the idea of distrust and it stays there, it stays there. And, and that's why I think it's so important to have all the pre-meetings.

Bill Froehlich (00:30:18): So all of this comes back to trust. The leadership identification, the change in leadership's ... It all comes back to trust.

Patricia Glenn (00:30:26): Yeah. And how you define what you do. See, because... You know, and...that's why it's the meetings that we have, you know, what is the expectation?

Bill Froehlich (00:30:53): Did you ever encounter pushback from the parties?

Patricia Glenn (00:30:56): All the time.

Bill Froehlich (00:30:57): Yeah. And obviously you describe some pushback to gain entry, but to gaining entry and starting conversations, what other pushbacks did you face?

Patricia Glenn (00:31:10): Well, we don't know you. You're not from this community.

Bill Froehlich (00:31:17): How did you that overcome that?

Patricia Glenn (00:31:19): You know, and...my response would be, you're absolutely right. You see, I think if you acknowledge that, then that kind of takes the sales out of it, because and it's also kind of, well, how much can we push the mediator? You know, what kind of temperament does the mediator have? And we've not really talked about that, but that that's really kind of important you know...and they're all kind of mediators, there's some kind of mediators who kind of I'm going to get an agreement that that's a type of mediator, you know, versus the mediator that says, let me try to help this community.

Bill Froehlich (00:32:12): And where would you fall on that line? Were you there for getting the agreement or were you there for helping the community in long term change?

Patricia Glenn (00:32:21): No, I....Believe it or not, I was really never concerned about getting an agreement. I really wasn't. You know, you know, I was really concerned with...I want to leave this community with more skills than they had before I came with. Because listen, most of them, and this was important to me now. Most of them had never had a chance to sit at the table across from community leadership, the mayor, the police chief, etc, and express what they wanted to happen in their community. And that's really important. So that what most of the time they were accustomed to was someone telling them, this is what we're going to do. And so this idea that you can actually be an equal at this table and help to define the destiny of your community was very important to me.

Bill Froehlich (00:33:39): So you, so I appreciate you highlighting how participants got to being equal in how they define their community to move forward, but your goal is to leave that community with more skills than they had. So tell me why were you mediating and not conducting a skills training to give them the skills that you thought they needed as a collective community?

Patricia Glenn (00:34:07): Well, because I don't think that...I was really supposed to make that judgment, that there's skillless. Ok. What I really was supposed to do is go there, you know, really try to analyze what's going on in this community. Is it something that falls within our, our mandate? And if it does then, what are the issues and how can I help them address their issues? Not address them for them, but how can I help them address them?

Bill Froehlich (00:34:53): So how did you measure the success of your efforts?

Patricia Glenn (00:34:58): If they continued you meet after I was gone. That was it, they were still making progress.

Bill Froehlich (00:35:10): So regardless of whether they were meeting formally through a new structure or informally to resolve problems, that arose, that would be success from your perspective. Is that right?

Patricia Glenn (00:35:21): Yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:35:24): And how did you monitor success or did you?

Patricia Glenn (00:35:28): I really did. Although a lot of... most of the time people would still call me, you know...either to say, I don't think this is going right, or, look we are having a wonderful time, etc. So...you know, still most of the time I was still and also because a lot of the people were in the NAACP, a lot of 'em were in the urban league, which were big now. Remember the time that I'm talking about. So they were already in, let's say organizations, and I used to go to a lot of the meetings, NAACP. I would go, you know, to that and urban league. And, you know, so I would always see people who were always telling me this happened, or that happened, or, you know, so that's how.

Bill Froehlich (00:36:35): So, how do you work as a conciliator with individuals who demand justice and have no interest or willingness to negotiate. So for example, some believe that assumed by sitting and meeting with a conciliator or a mediator, or coming to the table, they're abandoning their advocacy. They're abandoning... their commitments to their constituencies. How do you work with those individuals?

Patricia Glenn (00:37:12): Well, just by saying, well if that that's the case, then what else do you have? And understanding that. See, and, and I think that that's... agent of reality, you know, when I'm really, you know, used to kind of teach mediation, and that was one of the things tha that I talked about, you know, are we agents of reality? And part of that would be, no, you don't have to do this because this is a voluntary process. We can't say that you have to do this. Absolutely not. If you don't want to do this, then I can appreciate that. I can understand where you are. But could I just ask you then, how do you see the situation a month from here? So, so, ok.

Bill Froehlich (00:38:16): So I like that. How do you see the situation among for, from here, working with the advocates, any other ideas for working with individuals who demand justice?

Patricia Glenn (00:38:29): Well... I don't know what their... it's sometimes just getting to say.... What's your definition of justice, you know, because I think, you know, that's part of what you have to do because sometimes justice is not going to be resolved at this table. So maybe this is not what you need. And ...that's that idea of going back to, but where do you see yourself a month from now?

Bill Froehlich (00:39:11): Mm-hmm <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative>

Bill Froehlich (00:39:15): Great.

Bill Froehlich (00:36:16): So how does political polarization of the country, and I know we're in a partisan time when you were at CRS, but perhaps less partisan than now, how did political polarization impact your work?

Patricia Glenn (00:39:35): Well, it didn't impact it as much as I think it would now.

Bill Froehlich (00:39:43): Ok. Can you say more about that?

Patricia Glenn (00:39:45): Well, I think that politics, open politics didn't surface the way that it does now. It's just, you know, I think it would be harder now because I think they're more layers than there used to be. I mean, it used to be here's the police chief, you know, here's the city manager or here's, you know, the governor, or here's the head of this and the head of, you know, but I don't think it's the same rawness, there's that rawness now that did not occur before. So I think that, again, it's treading lightly as a mediator.

Bill Froehlich (00:40:53): What role did the media play in situations you were working in? For example, perhaps the media made i easier for you to do your work or perhaps the media made it more challenging. How did you navigate the media landscape?

Patricia Glenn (00:41:12): It was easy because we were not allowed to speak to the media, so it really made it really easy.

Bill Froehlich (00:41:20): All right.

Patricia Glenn (00:41:23): We deferred all of the media to headquarters.

Bill Froehlich (00:41:33): Let's see a couple of questions. I'm just going to note, and I understand you haven't been at CRS for more than a decade, so no need to respond, but three questions are: What changes have there been to policing, the criminal justice system, and education hat have affected your work? But no need to answer. Those are designed to pick up on changes in the past two decades. One change. One question that is applicable though is how are changes in federal administrations? So you were around from the transition from Clinton to Bush from Bush to Clinton, and perhaps others. How did those impact your work?

Patricia Glenn (00:42:20): They didn't impact our work a lot... I mean, we were always worried about funding. So, you know, I mean we were a little agency and, you know, sometimes it's hard to define what we do or what we did. And so... I think our biggest issue was are we going to get funded next year? Because we did not want a lot of publicity. You know, we always said that, you know, we wanted to do this and yet not have people know a lot about us, which are not what you need if you're going to stay viable. So... but the idea about civil rights though, was pretty, was better to deal with than I think now I think it would be much harder now.

Bill Froehlich (00:43:28): I'm sorry. I'm I don't follow necessarily. Could you say more about that? The idea about civil rights?

Patricia Glenn (00:43:34): Well, because I think with, you know, the banning of books and the different literature now and the language now. I think it might be harder to do some of this, but I have confidence in CRS.

Bill Froehlich (00:43:56): And...were there any strategies? And obviously that your work was confidential, you didn't talk to the press, but were there any strategies for highlighting the visibility and the successful efforts of CRS that you were a part of?

Patricia Glenn (00:44:10): ...No... not at our level right now. I know that the headquarters, obviously, but not at our level... I mean, you know, we were the grunts, you know, so we were the field soldiers, so no.

Bill Froehlich (00:44:27): Doing the work. So, speaking of headquarters, is CRS staffing... was CRS staffing ever sufficient to meet demands? And if not, did you ever partner with other agencies to catalyze your work and stretch your coverage?

Patricia Glenn (00:44:50): I think in the early days there might have been more staff, ok. But... I don't think that lasted long, but at one time I think there was there was more staff. One of the few times with other federal agencies, was when there was a spate of, and it's so interesting that I say this, burning of black churches in the south.

Bill Froehlich (00:45:32): Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Patricia Glenn (00:45:34): And we actually did partner with the Marshals and with the FBI because they wanted to get into the communities, but they had to use CRS as the entree. So yes, that is one time that I know we did do that.

Bill Froehlich (00:46:02): So you partnered with other federal agencies to help them gain entry. Did you feel neutral in that environment helping a law enforcement agency gain entry into, I assume, predominantly black communities in the south?

Patricia Glenn (00:46:19): Well... We did. I mean... You know, but I think it was a learning for the other federal agencies. You see, you know, that we were able to, and people welcomed us into these communities.

Bill Froehlich (00:46:42): So ... can you describe some of the challenges of helping the... other federal agencies gain entry though? Was there mistrust or were communities welcoming the law enforcement agencies with open arms?

Patricia Glenn (00:43:57): Not a bit, you know, because I mean, everyone remembered, you know, Mississippi and the situations there. And so... what the feeling well, you know, the federal government, you know, has not looked out for minorities. That was just it.

Bill Froehlich (00:47:26): Were there other agencies, nonprofits, or government organizations that you partnered with during, to execute your work at CRS?

Patricia Glenn (00:47:37): Not partnered. No. I mean, you know, certainly we worked with the Urban League. We worked with La Raza, did a lot of work with La Raza

Bill Froehlich (00:47:46): Mm-hmm

Patricia Glenn (00:47:47): Ok. You know, urban league NAACP, but see, those were the major organizations, You know, and so... trying to, I can't really even think of any other real organizations, but big, you know, besides those. And I mean, and we would always go to their conferences. We...would, you know, always participate on the panels... One of the educational organizations we ponder, we would work with them. So...yeah...there were.

Bill Froehlich (00:48:38): Ok.

Bill Froehlich (00:48:40): Would you mind if we just took a quick five minute break? So we just talked about partnerships with other entities. Did ... in your time at CRS, did you ever face pressure from anyone to quote "stay in your lane" from other federal or state officials, whether it's DOJ or someone else?

Patricia Glenn (00:49:04): No. I can't recall that. They may have said it, but I can't recall it.

Bill Froehlich (00:49:13): Ok. Who decides what kinds of cases you took? Did you make... take those on as a conciliator on your own? Did the regional director decide national or some combination thereof?

Patricia Glenn (00:49:25): Combination thereof.

Bill Froehlich (00:49:27): Yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:49:28): Can you say more about that if you recall?

Patricia Glenn (00:49:33): No. No.

Bill Froehlich (00:49:36): What... Another question will be difficult to answer. What role did social media play in your work? I assume the answer is none.

Patricia Glenn (00:49:43): Well... Absolutely. You know, we didn't have that when I was there, so.

Bill Froehlich (00:49:50): Right. But another question designed for newer conciliators, frankly, or more recently retired conciliator is how to combat fake news, but you have always... communities have always faced the problem of what to do about misinformation and misleading information. How did you deal with misinformation or misleading information coming from sources, in the communities where you were working?

Patricia Glenn (00:50:24): Well, you know, I guess we didn't even, you know, I don't think that we had as much misinformation and I think it's really... I'm just thinking about this, that most of the time there were kind of two or three ways where we heard about something and one of them is... of course we were supposed to read the papers from our particular state which gave you the information. And at that point, we send it most of the time to headquarters. So we would not really deal with the misinformation. And if we had a... let's say a mayor or police chief, or a community leader, you know, we would primarily put them in contact with our media person and let that person then settle it, which made it a lot easier for us.

Bill Froehlich (00:51:38): Sure. Ok... After you left CRS and, Congress passed the Matthew Shepherd James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act, which has expanded the scope of CSS services, beyond, race, ethnicity, and national origin. Do you have any reaction to the passage of that and the expansion of the scope of CRS's work?

Patricia Glenn (00:52:10): No. As long as they have enough staff to do it.

Bill Froehlich (00:52:12): Right. Staffing is always... Certainly always a question. Do you have any advice for navigating the bureaucracy of CRS?

Patricia Glenn (00:52:29): The bureaucracy of CRS or other people and about CRS?

Bill Froehlich (00:52:36): Either is fine. But do you have any advice for folks who are seeking to navigate the bureaucracy of CRS?

Patricia Glenn (00:52:46): Well, I guess I never saw there was really that much bureaucracy, truthfully. We were a small agency, you know, our mission was clear. We did not seem to have the same issues that, that some of the, you know, other agencies that had. And so, I guess my main thing would be to really follow the process. If you have some questions, you know, call headquarters, or you can call the regional directors, who could then give you kind of information.

Bill Froehlich (00:53:32): Great. So you have mentioned a number of colleagues you worked with at CRS. But can you say more about who you learned from in order to do the work well at CRS?

Patricia Glenn (00:54:01): I think everybody, because everyone has at least kind of one skill, you know, that someone else didn't have or etc. So, I think working with everyone, you gain something.

Bill Froehlich (00:54:25): Are there any particular skills that stand out to you that you gained from someone?

Patricia Glenn (00:54:38): Not really.

Bill Froehlich (00:54:41): Ok. You mentioned, and in our first conversation that Dick Salem recruited you to CRS and... Because you were a mediator with EEOC, I think in Chicago... you had several conversations and you were really trying to wrap your mind around what CRS did and what you would do as a conciliator at CRS. Assume your role is reversed, and now I'm in your shoes and you're recruiting me to CRS. And you are Dick Salem. Can you describe to me the work at CRS?

Patricia Glenn (00:55:27): Well, probably a lot more succinctly. Well, I don't know all the titles anymore. I mean, it used to be title, you know, that in conjunction with titles of the 1964 civil rights act that we assist communities who are experiencing difficulty due to various kinds of issues within their community, whether it be law enforcement, whether it be. And see I'm lost now. Because I don't know all of them anymore.

Bill Froehlich (00:56:12): No, it's no problem. I just, if you wanted to reflect on those conversations, the question was, I was hoping to elicit, a reflection on your conversations with Dick Salem after, you know, your career at CRS.

Patricia Glenn (00:56:38): Well, I think that, you know... Well, I didn't have one, but if I had one, I really would have thanked him for the chance to really have so many varied experiences... to, you know, be able to kind of look at that, you know, the, the Civil Rights act and really assist communities... To then, see how it works for them. That would be my conversation with Dick.

Bill Froehlich (00:57:20): Yeah... What sources other than the Civil Rights act and the James Byrd act, would you advise someone entering this line of work to observe or to learn from, in order to become an effective conciliator?

Patricia Glenn (00:57:39): Well, I think that there are just so many books on history that, you know... I think, you know, people ought to read. In fact, all I ever did I mean, poor Ms. Ochi when she was there, I just always talked to her about the fact that we needed to have practitioners. We needed to have people who had written books on civil rights to come in and talk to us because my fear, particularly for younger people is that they don't read. And so, you know, if you're not reading, then ... you don't get the... It's not just the history, but you don't get a chance to kind of get all of the parties, all of the different issues that were going on. Why was this so familiar? Why do we need to do this? And I'm still not sure that people do that today. You know, I'm an avid reader, so I'm always, you know, reading something, I guess people get tired of me because I'm always saying, listen, did you read this? Did you, you know, and, that to me would be something... that for me, before anyone joins CRS... they ought to have a book list.

Bill Froehlich (00:59:22): What would you put on the top of that book list?

Patricia Glenn (00:59:35): Well, I want to say there's a book called crossing the water...but... How the Irish became white. So, would not just be just primarily, I'm not just talking about black books, but I'm just talking about the history of groups in America. And I just think that that's important for me. May probably not for anyone else, but it was for me.

Bill Froehlich (01:00:31): Thank you. crossing the water, I'll keep that in.... put that on my reading list. Any other sources you would advise someone entering the sign of work to observe or read or engage?

Patricia Glenn (01:00:456): Well, you know.... It's not the same thing anymore. You see, and because it's kind of the old tired refrain, so it's because the new organizations don't have any new information, you know, they don't have any new ideas. It's just black lives matter. Ok. But where do we go with that? Haven't gone very far with it. You know... And I think that that a lot primarily is because they are so young that that's all they know, and that if they've not, you know, really had any studies in race relations, if they've not really looked at that, then that's all they'll ever know. And so, as a result, it's hard to keep people coming to, it's hard to keep that movement alive.

Bill Froehlich (01:02:05): Ok. Do you have any... Did you ever write any written accounts of any of your work or because it was confidential you did not?

Patricia Glenn (01:02:16): No. No.

Bill Froehlich (01:02:19): Let me just through my list real quick.... I'm just looking at my question list, quickly. Make sure I have everything I was supposed to. So, a couple of follow up questions then I have a couple of final questions to ask you. In the last oral history, you mentioned two events, that you were involved with. One was that here at Ohio state in Columbus, there was a convening of many big 10 colleges, including the ones in the state up north Michigan, about what to do about protests after big football games and sporting events.

Patricia Glenn (01:03:07): Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Bill Froehlich (01:03:18): Do you recall anything specific about that conference that stands out in your mind and could you share?

Patricia Glenn (01:03:18): Well, I think the thing that came out was that it ...was kind of nationwide college phenomenon that I think that Ohio State hosted it because Ohio state had, I think gotten the brunt of most of the bad publicity, you know, but once other universities came, then I think they found out that it, that it was not isolated just to Ohio State.

Bill Froehlich (01:03:58): And do you recall any specific strategies that came out of that convening for campuses to employ?

Patricia Glenn (01:04:05): Besides trying to not let the kids drink so much?

Bill Froehlich (01:04:09): Ok.

Patricia Glenn (01:04:12): You know, and better train the police and how to handle it.

Bill Froehlich (01:04:20): Ok. The other matter that I wanted to follow up with that you raised, was a specific incident that you were involved with. You said you were involved in Minneapolis after string on police involved shootings. And I did a little bit of background research since... our last meeting. There's a CRS report from 2002, where it kind of outline... Gives some context and says that ... there was a mediation that had commenced or something along those lines, and it was anticipated the mediation would go on for some time.

Bill Froehlich (01:04:55): When I reread your oral history or re-listened to the first part of the oral history. I recall you saying that, you know, mediations from your preference would be to have short mediations, hour long mediations, because after an hour...hour and a half folks start repeating themselves regularly. But this mediation that you led in Minneapolis was very different. It involved dozens, if not more than a hundred parties. And I believe, in December of 2003... you produced, through the mediation, the parties agreed to... a long agreement that included some 82 action items or something along those lines, and included developing the Minneapolis police community relations council. Can you tell us more about your recollection of this mediation session? And some of the challenges, with such a large... working with a large set of stakeholders.

Patricia Glenn (01:06:11): It was just the mediation from hell... because it was everything that I kind of said we shouldn't do. And, we had... because wounded knee, you know, wounded knee, well, we had one of the surviving, Bellaco brothers. And so... every time that we had a session, he would start about what CRS had done wrong during the session so that he would, you know, have to go into the oral history about woundedness, and so even though, you know, I kind of maybe after the third or, you know, we kind of said, "Well, you know, Mr. Bellaco that's, you know, really interesting." You know, didn't work, we just went through it. So, in the midst of it, then people decided they wanted the Somalis, to join. Now the Somali community, is maybe it's better now, but at that time was a very close knit community.

Patricia Glenn (01:07:53): Didn't have any outreach if you were not Somali... So many had come in that they had virtually taken over one of the buildings there. So I don't mean taken over, you know, living, there were so many of, you know. So that was one of the challenges. So kind of each time another group wanted to join, I told you it was just a mediation from hell and trying to curtail it so that it did not last all day, you know, so...number of challenges. But eventually, you know, we did get an agreement

Bill Froehlich (01:09:00): And if you want to say more about some of the other challenges, I'd love to hear them, but I know that one of your markers of success that you previously described is having folks meet after the mediation session and this agreement created for police community relations council, kept meeting and was still meeting I've read, you know, perhaps over a decade later. Do you view that as success that the entity was set up and convened, or is there more nuance to this particular scenario?

Patricia Glenn (01:09:39): Well, I guess it was a success at the time, but I don't think they... I don't think the police were really into it. I think they just wanted to stop coming to the meetings. So, you know, I think that...and it's funny because it's ironic because one of the police, who was on the panel subsequently became police chief.

Bill Froehlich (01:10:13): Yeah.

Patricia Glenn (01:10:14): And...Yeah. You know, and resigned as you know, when all of the new stuff started because there was no way to do anything. And so... I think that that's kind of one of the real issues that... Sometimes it really looks good, but you wonder, well is anything really happening from?

Bill Froehlich (01:10:44): So you said he resigned when the news stuff started, because there was no way to really do anything. What.... Say more about that you're referring, of course,

Patricia Glenn (01:10:54): Well, no, I'm talking about Floyd because he was a, you know... I didn't speak to him, but I think that.. his idea, because he had filed a charge right after that he and four of his officers, black officers about conditions within the police department within Minneapolis police department. And, so I think that it was when I was, you know, reading it, I was reflecting, you know, on kind of our conversations and how he didn't think that really much was going to change in the department. You know, even though obviously, you know, he became chief. So... I don't think much has changed.

Bill Froehlich (01:11:56): So this mediation.... I just wanna make sure I'm understanding correctly...One of the police officers in this mediation eventually became police chief and eventually resigned from that position as chief, after George Floyd was killed. Is that right?

Patricia Glenn (01:11:13): Yes.

Bill Froehlich (01:12:14): And that police officer also filed the complaint to the department, while you were mediating or shortly after mediating about how minority officers and some colleagues were treated within the department. That's a little bit that the police agreed to parts of this because they wanted to conclude the mediation session. It did go on for, at one point time, I read 18 months, this mediation, is that your recollection?

Patricia Glenn (01:12:57): Something like that. Although, you know, yeah. Something like that... It was just horrendous.

Bill Froehlich (01:13:10): So you have challenges that make it horrendous, like having to engage new stakeholders, having someone at the table who's talking about problems with other mediators or other conciliations elsewhere. One article that I read said ... that one, the community participants brought 120 issues to the table to be resolved. And I'm not sure if that's to the mediation or if that's to the police community relations council. How do you work through 120 issues as a conciliator?

Patricia Glenn (01:13:56): Very, very slowly

Bill Froehlich (01:13:59): Mm-hmm

Patricia Glenn (01:14:00): You know, I mean, very slowly and, you know a lot of them are a lot of them are just the same issue.

Bill Froehlich (01:14:07): Mm.

Patricia Glenn (01:14:08): You know, I mean, a lot of them are, you know, same issue just reframed or you know. So... And you see, and I mean, I think that that's the dilemma in terms of mediation and the mediator's role.

Bill Froehlich (01:14:28): Hmm.

Patricia Glenn (01:14:29): Ok.

Bill Froehlich (01:14:30): Say more about that.

Patricia Glenn (01:14:32): Ok. That is a role of the mediator to say "Look, this is just too many" Ok. Or to say, "Well, ok, thanks. I think that we can kind of put these in you, you understand?" And so at what time....at what point do you then say "Folks, I think we have enough issues"?

Bill Froehlich (01:14:57): Enough issues to grapple with. That's a good question. And, you know, in your PR mediation practice, you discussed previously that... It is not your practice to reframe the party's language. So if the parties are really talking about one issue in 17 different ways, you're going to let them leave the 17 different ways of the issue because that's their framing of ... that particular concept. Is that right?

Patricia Glenn (01:15:24): Well, I think I would. I don't want to reframe, but I think we'd have a discussion. Ok. See you don't ... I mean, having a discussion and reframing and not always the same thing

Bill Froehlich (01:15:40): So ... one of the articles that I'm reading is... It says that the parties that actually entered into the agreement were the Minneapolis police department and Unity community mediation. Is that.. Do you recall unity community mediation? And can you describe what that was?

Patricia Glenn (01:16:11): Not a bit.

Bill Froehlich (01:16:12): Ok... When you were hosting a mediation session, these mediation sessions, do you recall how many individuals were around the table?

Patricia Glenn (01:16:24): Sometimes 30, sometimes 40, sometimes 20,

Patricia Glenn (01:16:32): See part of this. And I mentioned this earlier, but part of this is also what happens with the community. Because remember a lot of the people have not ever had a chance to sit at a table and do this. Ok. So that, that's a real dilemma that, you know, does the mediator, in fact, because of the mediation itself, then create new leadership?... Ok. And so that's a real dilemma, and that's... when you ask that, that's kind of what occurred, you know? Well, I'll just come and, you know, sit for a little while, and then the next time " Oh, I kind of like this" you understand? And so it then becomes from trying to just get information to all of a sudden, no I really wanna be involved in this.

Bill Froehlich (01:17:49): Yeah. Yeah.

Patricia Glenn (01:17:49): And is that the role of the mediator?

Bill Froehlich (01:17:57): Yeah. Good. All good questions. And it sounds like an exceptionally challenging circumstance. You mentioned the last call that you got calls from Minneapolis, two years ago in 2020. Do you wanna say anything more about those calls?

Patricia Glenn (01:18:14): No. They just, you know, the people just called and it was really, you know, kind of funny because the guy who was handling Minnesota called me and he said, "Hey, guess what? The people who were at the table before, want you to come in." And I said, "not a chance"Nope, Nope. But, but he told me that a lot of people from there had.

Bill Froehlich (01:18:48): And you're talking about the CRS, the conciliator rep who's doing work in Minneapolis called you, is that right?

Patricia Glenn (01:18:54): And, you know, said, well... They just wanted to say hi, or why weren't you involved? And, you know, etc... So I said, no and maybe you need new blood. You know, seriously, I think that that's kind of something, maybe that people need to talk about. At what time.... Do you need a new mediator?

Bill Froehlich (01:19:24): That's a great question. That's a good question... How do you know, as a mediator/concillator when it's appropriate for you to step out?

Patricia Glenn (01:19:36): Yes.

Bill Froehlich (01:19:39): Were there any, any other illustrations from this mediation that you wanted to share?

Patricia Glenn (01:19:48): No

Bill Froehlich (01:19:48): From this Mediation?

Bill Froehlich (01:19:55): (Silence)

Bill Froehlich (01:19:55): Right. I'll just note this article that I think it's in Minnesota, public radio, article that I was reading, I'll just read you... a quote from you. This is .... after the mediation says, "Certainly as a mediator, I always want to get a written agreement, but also what I want to see happen is relationships change that people aren't the same people they were seven months ago when we began this tedious process, tedious sometimes very contentious process." That's the end of the short quote in this article, but that is so consistent with what you said today, about your goals for mediation.

Patricia Glenn (01:20:36): Yes.

Bill Froehlich (01:20:38): So I have two final two last questions for you. First is, are there any questions I should asked you that I haven't?

Patricia Glenn (01:20:50): Well, I think that.... I don't think every everyone's suited to be a mediator. So for you, you know, with your project, then what do you look for? How do you evaluate whether they're going to, to be successful?

Bill Froehlich (01:21:16): Mm-hmm, <affirmative>,

Bill Froehlich (01:21:18): That's a great question. What qualities would you look for or would you suggest a mediator should have Patricia?

Patricia Glenn (01:21:29): Well, obviously patience, which I have so little of and it's just always how I do this because I have so little patience. Certainly patience, but... The ability to read people, that's really important.

Bill Froehlich (01:21:56): Your intuition with respect to Reverend Sharpton, as you described earlier ... just reading his eye contact, his eye signals and his comfort level in that first conversation, that you described earlier, that's an example of how you were successful in doing that.

Patricia Glenn (01:22:15): You know, I mean, I think that that's something that, you know, but that patience, so.

Bill Froehlich (01:22:32): The ability to read people and patience,.Anything else that are top qualities you would want in a conciliator?

Patricia Glenn (01:22:41): To know when to shut up

Bill Froehlich (01:22:44): Mm-hmm <affirmative>

Patricia Glenn (01:22:50): We had, I'm going to give you an example of really why that's important. We had, and I'm not going to, I'm just going to give you the example. We had to go on ... to meet with, a gentleman and ... the guy just kept on talking and talking ... and I was watching the superintendent and he was kind of antsy. And so I said... Maybe it's time for us to leave. And, the person I was with said, "Oh, no, no, we are we're ok." Well, the next thing that happened was that the superintendent, we were at a school. The superintendent arose put on his coat and his hat and told us to turn out the light when we left. So, and that's really true. That's a true story. So the ability to kind look at a situation, so would be some what I would look for.

Bill Froehlich (01:24:24): Yeah. Ok. Well, thank you. Good. So any other questions I should be asking you?

Patricia Glenn (01:24:38): Well, see, I really don't know in terms of... I don't know if what you're doing there is actual mediation or are you teaching people how to mediate?

Bill Froehlich (01:24:52): Yeah, let me, I'm going to pause for a second. So the final question is there anything that you share with me about your experience and work at CRS?

Patricia Glenn (01:25:06): The one thing that, you know, I would say is I really enjoyed it. Because

Patricia Glenn (01:25:15): I was able, and I was really blessed with having a staff in headquarters who if they had a situation and it was kind of antsy, they call me because they knew I liked to do various things. And so it gave me a chance to really practice a lot of mediation skills and a lot of situations. And so, I just always thank them so much because I think the gamut from doing death row mediation, which was really interesting, heartbreaking at the same time, you know, to go over to Russia and work there at the university and teach mediation and go and establish mediation centers throughout Russia to Minnesota to, you know. So that, I had such a really, really good career and just was thankful for it.

Bill Froehlich (01:26:34): Can you tell me just a little bit about death row mediation and what that was like, what the issues were that you were mediating?

Patricia Glenn (01:26:44): There were systemic issues, that, that really had to do with, inmates and conditions. We were not working on whether or not the people, were on death row. That was not it, that had already been decided. So we were on systemic issues, such as, the inmate claimed that he had 25 wat bulbs. And it was... Infecting. It was bothering his eyes because he was in the, you know, the cell all the time. And so it, you know, he had poor eyesight due to that... He was a Muslim and that the food contained pork... That inmates in there who had mental conditions. And...that was against the law to put people with mental illnesses in with other inmates. So there were a number of issues, systemic, that impacted that entire system. And so what we actually did was to go on site that's when I meant, was kind of scary. I don't know if I could do that now. You know, because you go and, you know, you can't even have a pencil. You know, and you learn that there is a prison grapevine, because they already knew that we were coming. You know.

Bill Froehlich (01:28:33): What state, or what prison, if you can say, what state were you in?

Patricia Glenn (01:28:37): Wisconsin, you know, but it was as I've said, it was at the same time. So sobering because you see all of these men, you know, and you're thinking my goodness, you know, what can have gone on and you know, so, but as I've said, I was just fortunate because I was one of.... I guess if you had an assignment, I'd go just that simple, you know? And so I really thanked, you know, CRS for that.

Bill Froehlich (01:29:23): Absolutely. Thank you for delving a little bit more into that prison death row mediation over some of the issues. I can't imagine, walking on death row myself, and doing something like that. I don't have the ability ... I just sobering. It's a good word to use. Well, Patricia, unless there's anything else you want to tell me? This is kind of, this is the conclusion of our oral history. Once I push pause, I just want publicly thank you for joining us for two sessions. And then when I hit pause, I'll go over some logistics and just let you know what, what happens next. Ok?

Patricia Glenn (01:30:12): Ok.