Rosa Melendez -- Part 2 of 3

Rosa Melendez was the Regional Director for CRS Region 10 from 2000 - 2014.

There are 3 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 and The Summary This is Part 2.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Xz9k6ZMNGI

Bill Froehlich: Well, it's April 22nd, 2022. It's been about six months since our first oral history segment with Rosa Melendez and we're starting segment two here. So let's dig in. Rosa, are you ready?

Rosa Melendez : I am ready.

Bill Froehlich: All right. Exciting. So we're gonna start to look broadly now at what your typical cases might have looked like- just general information about your work at CRS. and actually I need a better notepad. <laugh> give me one second. Right? So Rosa, we wanna start today by looking more broadly now at a typical case, you might have at CRS, knowing of course, that look, no case is typical, they're all unique, right? They all have their own unique flavor, but can you start, in a typical case, what kinds of roadblocks might you encounter in your efforts to work with parties effectively? And how do you overcome those roadblocks?

Rosa Melendez : Well, probably one of the most common roadblocks...and most of our cases dealt with law enforcement and communities of color...so the roadblocks were that you had two groups that completely saw themselves differently. Law enforcement saw itself as trying to be more community oriented and trying to work with the community and many communities of color saw law enforcement as profiling or targeting them.

Bill Froehlich: So, how did you overcome that particular roadblock? What were some of the strategies or techniques that you used?

Rosa Melendez : Well, first of all, you know, we would select, a smaller group because you can't have a large group, but we would normally start off with a large group, a session of dialogue where, you know, there were several law enforcement representatives, normally the chief or one of his, or her representatives and a couple of other officers. If the incident took place in a certain area, we wanted one of the officers from that area to be there. And it was kind of a question and answer thing. Then we'd have a follow up session, another, you know, session probably with a smaller group. You know, one thing about working with these groups is you start to know people in the group that have an earnest interest in resolving the issue or people that are looking for media attention or self-serving attention. And we always try to have people come to the table that had the interest of the community at heart. So there was no self...promoting and we also had the police department. Within several dialogues...eventually they all realized that the number one thing is everybody wants to be safe.

Everyone wants to be treated fairly. Everyone wants their kids to be safe. So once you get that and you start the group working with each other, once they realize that they have common issues, then they start agreeing on things and moving forward, it may take up to five or six sessions s, you know, with the group. Sometimes I gotta be realistic. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. You know, I think I talked earlier about working with the school district and one of the indigenous groups in Seattle, and we had many, many, many meetings about the failure rate of the native American students in the Seattle public schools. And, you know, there were just people in the group that no matter what the school district solution, the school district came up with, they weren't ready to accept it, which tainted the entire group. So sometimes it just doesn't work out, but you just keep trying. And...certain people that come forward that really want to work.

Bill Froehlich: So it sounds like you start with those larger meetings. And when you begin to identify, who are really interested in working on the project and have perspective that communities interests at heart. Those are the folks you focus on. One of the roadblocks you identified was the self-promoting individual. So, how would you deal with that roadblock? Would you not include them in the working group or...what would you do?

Rosa Melendez : Well sometimes with the working group, the community group, you know, there there's people that you have, you get relationships with and....you'll have separate discussions with both groups before you bring the groups together. And the people in the group know which community members are self promoting, and sometimes they request that they not be there. Sometimes you just have to have them there and kind of direct the conversation away from what they're trying to promote. Like maybe they're trying to run for office. I mean, there's just different things that they're promoting, but you try to work with the group or have the group in a sense, guide them to what the group wants. And sometimes that doesn't work. It didn't work with our group with the Seattle public schools. I mean, no matter what we did, there was one person that constantly came to all the meetings and was very contentious. The group leadership tried to talk to her and it just didn't...wouldn't work because she...no matter what resolution the group and the public school came with, she was not good enough. You know, she wanted to constantly blame the school for the failure rates of the students. And, and you can't...really move forward when you have somebody that's that contentious, but sometimes that's just what happens.

Bill Froehlich: So I hear the two roadblocks we've discussed so far is the two groups, particularly with law enforcement and communities of color, seeing one another as differently generally. And the second is dealing with that contentious or self-promoting individual. Were there other roadblocks that were common that you encountered?

Rosa Melendez : Oh, I'm thinking I'm sure there are...I can't think of any right now, but I know there are. You know, bill it's, it's kind of funny because it's been eight years since I've been away from that and some of the cases are fading...

Bill Froehlich: That's okay. But, and that's part of why we're doing this to capture some institutional memory. So we'll be sure to...we can loop back to it if it comes up again. So, did you encounter pushback from the parties themselves or outsiders about the processes that you were engaged in about what you were doing in a typical case?

Rosa Melendez : Yeah... There were always pushbacks. Number one...many times in the educational area and the law enforcement area, there's members that feel that they do everything for the community, or they've tried everything for the community, or they try to understand the community, but the community doesn't try to understand them. And then there's some members in the community that just believe. And I'm not saying there isn't that it's pure racism and pure targeting and no matter how you try to guide the group, those people won't let go of that perception. And it, you know, you can't say it's not real because it is their perception.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Okay. So some of the pushback you would get is from folks who think the system is racist and it's not going change.

Rosa Melendez : And then there's...people in the system that feel that they've done a lot of changes and that it's the community or those that are complaining that don't wanna make any amends or compromises.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. So the first point you made is kind of the opposite of the last, the community. And the first point you made the individuals in the community say, "we've done a lot of work. We keep trying, but no one's really hearing us." Whereas the folks inside the system, if there was pushback would say, "look, we've tried to make these changes, we've done this, that, and the other." And they felt that those changes weren't understood or didn't have an impact on what the community's perspective of the system was. Am I getting that right?

Rosa Melendez : Yeah. And, you know, Bill the other thing is that there, I can think of one person in particular that was so anti law enforcement, no matter what meetings we had, she pushed back. But once we got her involved in some like Seattle police department, got her involved in the African American advisory council. And then she went to the Seattle police citizens academy, and then the FBI had their FBI academy. And she went to that. After that she became more of an advocate for law enforcement. And we always involved her in lots of groups because she was able to talk about where she was prior to working in some of these groups and attending some of these civilian academies and where she is now, she was still vocal about things that she saw were wrong. But I mean, she did almost 180 degree turn, and it's always good to have somebody like that in the group that can express where she was. And she was very vocal and she was a grandstander. I have to tell you that she was a grandstander and then became an advocate and fought for law enforcement.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. So this individual, huge advocate, went to a number of trainings...Community Academy's, FBI academy, and her perspective shifted. Can you say more about, do you know, why specifically...Did she have more empathy? Did she have more just where people were coming from...

Rosa Melendez : She had more understanding of the workings in law enforcement? What some of the policies and practices were, you know, whenever there's a disturbances, you're gonna have two officers. So it's not that it's only in the African American community or the Latino community. If there's a disturbance in one of the, you know, more affluent communities, there's still two cars that are gonna respond or a car that has two officers in it. She started understanding some of the things that, you know, why police did what they did. You know, there was a policy, there was a procedure to it. She also became part of a group in law enforcement, a working group on how to make changes. So getting her involved in groups that law enforcement had, where they solicited her ideas, you know, her thoughts and...going to some of the academy classes to talk to some of the brand new rookies that were getting out of the academy. So as she got more involved and became friends with...The other thing is she became very good friends with law enforcement personnel. And so she...she got a buy in.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah.

Rosa Melendez : She just one that I can think of when I was with the police department and then with the Marshall service saw her. And then when I went to CRS, how she started, I saw that turning, but it was constantly having her involved in small groups and participating. And...at that time, at the beginning, never ruled her out of a meeting. He kept her in a meeting and kept, you know... and then they would have one on one discussions. So and then...they started...coffee with a cop and they'd meet at Starbucks or little neighborhood coffee shops and would discuss issues in the neighborhood. So, I mean, and she brought with her voice and her stance. She brought a lot of community members...to the different advisory groups.

Bill Froehlich: So she was engaged by the community. They were asking for opinions. And there seemed to be a reciprocal relationship where she was engaged by the...police...or law enforcement agencies. And they were then engaging her as well.

Rosa Melendez : Right, right. But...it was a process of about, I have to say, oh my God, I was a Lieutenant with the Weed and Seed Project in 1990 and she was totally against the police department. Then now go forward to 2000. She starts becoming part of the advocates for the police department. So it took about a 10-year span.

Bill Froehlich: That's a lot of time and effort and energy.

Rosa Melendez : And you know, lots of cases are like that because when you're working with communities, there's always certain members in the community that have faith in CRS and know that CRS is not gonna side with anybody and will work and stand up for us.

Bill Froehlich: So I wanna transition a little bit to a different topic, generally, broadly about how it affected most in many of your cases, specifically the media, what role did the media play and how did you interact and work with them both in terms of making it better or making it more challenging, meaning were you able to develop relationships with the media to support your work, or was media more of a challenge to work with? Were they trying to get information from you? How did that work in your role?

Rosa Melendez : In the Northwest, media was almost absent in a lot of these things. I mean, unless it was a very high profile case. The high profile case would be the John T. Williams that I talked about. That was a very high profile case. And, you know, I had relationships with media in law enforcement...When I was with Seattle police department and then with the Marshall service and then with CRS. So those long term relationships...if I said, we cannot talk about it right now, they respected that. Now, if they wanted to talk to the police department or a community member that was part of this discussion group, I couldn't stop them from doing that. But, you know, I would always let the community in the lawsuit and the parties know that I wasn't gonna talk about what we were discussing. And like I said, the media people that I knew, being a long-term resident of Seattle, you know, knew if I said, I can't talk about it. They just respected that. So we, we never really had problems with media now. Let me take that back a little bit. Yes. In some of the more real conservative areas, like in Idaho or Alaska media would write stories without even having real knowledge about what we were doing. And that was a challenge, but we were never going to change their mind.

Bill Froehlich: Can you say more about that? What do you mean...They're not check in with you or...

Rosa Melendez : Well...they would hear that...the feds, they'd call 'em, the feds are in town and they're gonna make, try to make us change how we do things. It wasn't real news, you know, but there was a certain population in those more rural areas that believed what they read without any information of what was really going on.

Bill Froehlich: I recall you describing the Pacific Northwest as the wild west at one point in our prior interview. And so that maybe that theme applies to news as you're describing it. I wondered though, were there any particular cases, where you were able to overcome this challenge connecting with media in more rural or wild west states? Do you have any specific examples?

Rosa Melendez : I don't. And they didn't really wanna talk to us because they saw us as their enemies, you know. I mean, bottom line was...if we weren't with them, we were against them. So we were there. And I think when you work in the Northwest, you just realize that there are some newspapers...or small newspapers, community newspapers that are going to write stories like that. You can't change that mentality. You know, that mentality has to change from within.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Good.

Rosa Melendez : And and it was like...one time, I remember we were in Sandpoint, Idaho and the mayor of Sandpoint wanted us to try to do some community dialogue with a certain segment of the community. A gentleman was running for sheriff and he had a cross burning party. We weren't gonna change that. You know, and many people in the discussion with her said, that's a certain population that we will never change. They will never come around. I mean, he didn't win, but she was upset that he still got, you know, votes, but that, like I said, that's a certain population that's not gonna be rational about what we're talking about. They're not gonna be like you and I, that are gonna sit down at the table and try to look at everybody's side and listen, they wouldn't listen if you, if they're not gonna listen, you can't help.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Thank you for that illustration. Generally in a case, when you were called in, was your goal to get a settlement in the case or did you try to secure a larger systemic change in that community? Regardless of whether there was a settlement?

Rosa Melendez : My goal in every case we worked in was to try to have the parties come together and talk an irrational conversation to listen to each other, to continue meeting and possibly work on a project together. My feeling was, and I think my staff's feeling was...In the Northwest, there were many communities that did not believe in mediation. They did not want anything written down. You know...they didn't want that, but if we could get them to the table to talk, to communicate, to listen to each other and try to make some changes to me that was a success. Now, if they call us back to help them with a mediation or some type of agreement, then that's a greater success. But my main goal was to get all parties to the table, to not just talk, but to listen and to try to understand.

Bill Froehlich: Wonderful. Yeah, I hear that. So you're building. Your goal was to get them into the conversation, to begin the conversation with the hope that maybe it goes somewhere. And if it doesn't, perhaps they've listened, they've talked, maybe they've built a little bit of a relationship.

Rosa Melendez : Well, sometimes, you know, it ends up that they don't, like I said... with the school board and the native American community, that wasn't...the bigger group wasn't gonna go anywhere, but we were able to meet with the school board and make suggestions on what worked in other communities and what things they might wanna look at or what communities they might wanna contact that had similar situations. In the smaller group of the American Indian community that wanted to move forward. We gave them ideas on how to work with the school district and some of them met with the school district individually and ran for school board, you know, positions and stuff like that. But sometimes you just have to work with each side individually, if you can't get them together. And then there's some groups like...One group in Eastern Washington, the police department in the school district did not wanna work with us at all, did not. And so then you meet with the...it was a Latino community. You meet with the Latino community and discuss some of their options that they can do.

Bill Froehlich: Well, that's interesting. So this...Eastern Washington case where the school district refused to meet with you, you were working with and coaching, it sounds like, or at least identifying options for the minority community that wanted to engage CRS.

Rosa Melendez : Right. We gave them options. And eventually their option was that they felt that they needed to take a stance. What...It was, and I can talk about it because it ended up being in the newspaper and it had a federal settlement. They took it to federal court. Is that a principal and the police chief of a very small community in Eastern Washington called all Latino mills into the high school library and forced them to sign a document stating they were gang members. And if they were ever arrested again, they would be prosecuted as a gang member.

Rosa Melendez : School district didn't wanna meet with us police department, didn't wanna meet with us...it was none of our business, you know, that type of thing. So then you meet with the community and you explain to the community, well, you know, we can continue to meet and talk about what resolutions you can have. And there were representatives there from LULAC who said, "no, you know, this has been going on for too long. And the only way they're gonna learn to make a change is by us going to court." So they took the case to federal court, which is kind of interesting. They took the case to federal court. They won, and it almost bankrupt the city with the settlement. And then the citizens of the city became angry with the Latino community because they almost bankrupted the city and the community couldn't see that it was a larger problem.

Bill Froehlich: Wow. So you were in this particular case, CRS is called in to host some community conversations. And the leaders of the Latino community from LULAC said, we're not gonna pursue this. The school board won't meet with you or with us anyway. So, let's file for federal litigation. They were successful. And then there were collateral consequences of their success. And so you're observing this from the regional office. Were you called back in, did you continue to consult after the litigation was...or continued to work with anyone from the community after the litigation had resolved?

Rosa Melendez : We were never called back in. We, I mean, you know, there were different community members that would call us and let us know what was happening. But we were never called back in to work with them again. But it was interesting that it took that kind of...I mean they won, but they didn't win. And the police department...I mean, the superintendent was fired. The police chief was fired. New people came in...that's interesting. I should check up and see whatever happened with all the new leadership changes. But at that time it was disaster for the community.

Bill Froehlich: What was the name of the town? ...You said it was public, so...

Rosa Melendez : Yeah. Brewster, Washington

Bill Froehlich: Brewster with a B?

Rosa Melendez : Yeah.

Bill Froehlich: Oh, that's, that's interesting. Do, if you recall, what were your, or your staff's efforts to gain entry with the police, with the school district that weren't successful and why weren't they successful in this particular case?

Rosa Melendez : I specifically spoke to the police chief and...I introduced myself as a former law enforcement executive come up through the ranks, you know, type thing. And now I was a big city cop. You know, feds coming in, don't need...We don't need your help.

Bill Froehlich: Mm-hmm

Rosa Melendez : And the principal basically said the same thing. You know, you guys are...big city, Seattle, you don't know how it really works in the rural community. We don't need your help. We don't want your help. We don't need your help.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah...thank you for sharing that, because I know in our prior conversation, you were talking about how you were brought in with...in other regions with Tommy Battles and Ron Wakabayashi and others to gain entry...with police leadership in other communities, because of your law enforcement background, but here...your Seattle cred as a police officer was detrimental for this smaller community.

Rosa Melendez : And I also think that my gender and my ethnicity played in that too. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>,

Bill Froehlich: Mm-hmm,

Rosa Melendez : Because, you know, they knew my name, Melendez, it's Latino. So, you know, I think they felt that I was gonna side with the Latino community and...this was a very rural white dominated area, male dominated area. So I think my gender and my ethnicity also played on that.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah.

Rosa Melendez : Right. And, you know, my entire staff was a staff of people of color. And sometimes that didn't work for us, especially in parts of Idaho and Oregon and Alaska, but, you know, even Washington.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for sharing that. I know that gaining entry with very conservative or white supremacist groups is a challenge for conciliators in these conversations. And we mightget to that...in a little bit. So how, you know, you talked a little bit ago about success to you is a conversation at the table, getting people to the table, having a conversation and where it goes from there. Did you measure success that way? Did you have metrics in the region for getting people to the...into a conversation, or how did...you actually measure what success was from your perspective?

Rosa Melendez : Our idea of success was getting people to the table and having them decide if we needed a follow up meeting, not us, but the, you know, I would ask, do we need a follow up meeting? And people would say, yes, you know, we're getting started on things. So the more that they started having meetings, and if they develop like the Native American advisory council, if they develop a group where they're constantly interacting, that's a success for me, that's a systemic change.

Bill Froehlich: Right.

Rosa Melendez : And they start meeting on their own. They're not asking us to come to, I mean, they would ask us to come for celebrations, you know, where they were celebrating accomplishments, but, you know...these meetings can go on for years. So my thing was, as long as we're meeting and we're moving in a direction where everybody's talking to each other and even having coffee or dinner with each other afterwards, that's a success.

Bill Froehlich: Absolutely. I wonder is that measure your measurement of success as the regional director?

Rosa Melendez : That that really is my measure of success is if they, if they're meeting with each other on their own, and they're starting to break bread together and have coffee together and, and developing projects where they start working on 'em together, to me that's success.

Bill Froehlich: What was DC's measure of success? Did you have to report metrics to them?

Bill Froehlich: They measured success.

Rosa Melendez : There was numbers that were case numbers. Like, if you were able to do a dialogue, or if you were able to do a training, we did lots of trainings. You know, one of the trainings that, that we did that I think was very successful and we did it several times was...the Pendleton Indians in Oregon felt that the students weren't being treated fairly the students, the native American students, weren't being treated fairly. So, I met with the regional director of the department of education, civil rights office and the US attorney's office and said, if we have a training session where we invite all the superintendents in this area, the coaches, and, you know, other leadership from these different school districts and, you know, have a dialogue or have a training session where, you know, US attorney's office and the civil rights office talks about...what the role is of superintendent, what they're responsible for.

And then we had a session where we had some students that were victims or harassers of bullying, a session with them. And the most powerful thing is sometimes one of the students would break down and start crying. And I think the educators seeing that was...the Pendleton Indians or Umatilla Indians, I should say, said let's...they had a big auditorium, 'cause they had their own casino. They said, let's invite them to our auditorium. We will feed them breakfast. We will feed them lunch and we will have this all day training session. And it was very successful. Becky participated in one of them...

Bill Froehlich: Becky Monroe?

Rosa Melendez : Yeah and then we took it to a couple places in Idaho, but then there were political changes and that was not a metric anymore. You know?

Bill Froehlich: So some of the metrics were the number of trainings, the number of dialogue sessions, the number of cases that you opened or closed or both or what other metrics were there?

Rosa Melendez : ...And mediation....mediation was highly recommended, but I always said it was not a successful situation in the Northwest. The Northwest, you know, wasn't geared for mediation.

Bill Froehlich: And...DC's definition of mediation, was that just having a formal mediation or getting to an agreement or again, both?

Rosa Melendez : Both, both written and had to be written kind of right.

Bill Froehlich: So how, um,

Rosa Melendez : Now we could come to mediation agreements, you know, verbally

That, wasn't part of the metrics, but to me again, that was a success, you know. Understanding your...population and understanding what's gonna work in your community.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. So I wanna shift just a little bit to, you've talked about the difference in communities and politics essentially, but I wanna know over your tenure at CRS, how has the political polarization of the country generally affected your work at CRS? Did you notice a shift from, you know, the aughts to the teens? And can you say more about how polarization has affected your work?

Rosa Melendez : Well, okay. There were times that the display of Confederate flags could be a case and then there's a political change in DC, and then it's not, you know.

Bill Froehlich: Say more about that. So under one administration, there might be a mediation about the display of Confederate flags on a public space, or what are we...say more about that?

Rosa Melendez : Well, it was more in the south than in our areas, but we have white supremacist, you know, in Idaho. And I mean, some of these rural communities are very populated with white supremacist. Now I came in right before Bush came and at that time, if there was a Confederate flag issue, it could be worked on as a case. During the Bush administration at some time it was not viewed as a case or as a problem. And then during the Obama administration, then it started being viewed as a problem again. So it was kind of like Democrat/Republican, you know, and, sometimes, you know, I didn't really have this problem in the Northwest, but I know some of the Southern, Tommy could probably talk about it more, some of the Southern states with the Southern senators or something did not want CRS to participate in some of the cases or felt that CRS wasn't invited by them.

Bill Froehlich: And if I'm recalling our prior conversation, when a Senator doesn't want you involved, you end up getting pulled from Sierras. Yeah <affirmative> so that would've had significant, significant impact

Rosa Melendez : Politics can play a lot in it and, you know, all the senators I worked with were, they never told us we couldn't be there. But I know that there was some, some senators and, and even some US attorneys that did not want CRS in because they thought CRS sided too much one way or another.

Bill Froehlich:  these transitions, as I would describe them are between federal administrations, Clinton to Bush, Bush to Obama. and...you retired before Trump...if I'm recalling correctly. So, what other shifts were there between administrations, the Confederate flag issue, were there...were you asked to focus on particular issues more than others or less than previously, or were you asked to shift how you trained your mediators or how you trained communities? Were there...other shifts,

Rosa Melendez : Under Sherry Freeman, there was more of a push for mediations

Bill Froehlich: And Sherry Freeman was director in what time period?

Rosa Melendez : During the Bush administration. Now when Becky was acting director and Diane Mitchum was acting director, their focus was training dialogues. It was kind of like anything that you could do that would make the situation better was a success. So it wasn't geared to one direction. Like under Sherry Freeman...mediation. I mean, and we always fell short. The Northwest always fell short on mediation. Cause it just wasn't, you know, it, wasn't something that's really practiced, you know, in that time.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. So yeah...I'm hearing that the transition from Sherry to Becky, which is essentially the transition from the Bush administration to the Obama administration, shifted the focus from mediations and mediation agreements to doing more training and dialogue. I think you started to say anything, you could do

Rosa Melendez : Anything that resolved the issue and brought parties more together. Like I said, the one with the Umatilla Indians that was...

Rosa Melendez : That was momentous because you had, prior to that, we had some, we had complaints or, you know, information that some coaches in some of the school districts would not let certain native American players play. If they knew a scout was there because they would tell the players, well, you belong to an Indian tribe. You're gonna get a scholarship anyway. You know, our other students aren't gonna get it, so we're gonna play them. So they, you know, can be seen. And I think having the coaches, the superintendent and the principals there, seeing how those decisions affected the students and affected the community, that specific community and the parents, I mean, they walked away. It was a different walk away. You saw, like when some of the students broke down. I remember when this one young woman broke down to the point that her mother had to come and console her when she was trying to say how she was bullied and how she had gone to the teacher, how she'd gone to the principal and you know, how her mother had called and nothing was done to the point she dropped out. And how two years later that was still affecting her and her education was not moving forward because it was so traumatic to this young woman that she couldn't move forward. And seeing the principles and superintendents just, I mean, people became teary eyed and it was like an aha moment where you could just see that their brains were clicking

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Rosa, I think you are crystallizing an answer to an earlier question. When I asked you was the goal settlement, or did you try to obtain larger systemic change? And what I'm hearing is, for example, this training, this dialogue session you had with the indigenous group in Oregon, that's causing some systemic change. It's not a one off communication. And that in part you were able to, I think what I'm hearing is that that training is an example of something that happened under the Obama administration, because you were encouraged to do whatever you could to engage communities. And so I really appreciate that example because I think it crystallizes some of the distinctions of where the priorities were under...particular administrations. Can you identify any other shifts between the federal administrations, any other transitions that you experienced from Clinton to Bush or Bush to, I know you were just starting when Clinton was in office, but anything else that you recall?

Rosa Melendez : You know, also shortly, I mean, during the Clinton administrations, a short time there, I had, of course worked, with the NOBLE, National Organizations of Black Law Enforcement Executives, and their civil rights area. I was first vice president of HAPCOA, Hispanic American Police Command Officers Association. And I was an advisory member to the National Center for Women and Policing. Now, during the Clinton administration, it seemed like they wanted us to interact and attend more meetings with law enforcement, especially those us that were in law enforcement. Now, during the Bush administration, it's almost like they shut us off. And I have, you know, now this is something we may wanna cut off later, but Sherry Freeman wasn't fond of me because she called me a Clintonite and Sherry Freeman was the national director and she was the general council for Henry Hyde that tried to impeach Clinton.

So, I think that played a part in what she let me participate in and what she did not let me participate in.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Really interesting.

Rosa Melendez : And she pointed out that I would've never been her choice as a national...regional director.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. This is so interesting because you left...I'm sorry...the US Marshals Service as the US Marshal in Seattle to go to CRS, because you didn't think that you would be reappointed under the Bush administration.

Rosa Melendez : Right.

Bill Froehlich: But now you're facing, political shifting political wins as a regional director, in being cut off a little bit, not cut off, but transitioned away from law enforcement to other priorities. Do you wanna say more about that at this time?

Rosa Melendez : Not really. I mean, it was, you know, it was...a challenge. I had to challenge every case we worked on and why we were working on it and, and she played a divide and conquer role in my district. So she would have some staff members reporting to her what they thought I wasn't doing, you know, so it was...just a difficult time. It was a difficult time. And once she left, it's like I was able to soar again, you know, but during her tenure, I felt like my wings were clipped. So I had to be more strategic on how we worked on things and how we reported to DC. Then I don't, I mean, and then, you know...

Bill Froehlich: Can you say more about what that strategy looked like? About how you worked and how you reported?

Rosa Melendez : Well, I mean, I was just more critical about everybody's reports. I wanted them to detail exactly everything they did. Like if there was, if they had a dialogue, more detail on what was the dialogue about, you know, and I had them try things that I wouldn't have normally had them try. Like, we'll try to get them to the table and sign an agreement because, you know, she likes agreements, you know,...and it wasn't working. It just, you know, wasn't working and we just kind of mustered through

Bill Froehlich: <laugh>. Okay. No, I appreciate that this is really valuable...where the national priorities shift, they put pressure on you to get to agreements, which isn't of the culture of the Pacific Northwest as you worked in it with your conciliators. And that's part of the reason why your agreement levels were lower than the other regions, as you said earlier. Yeah. That's really, really insightful and helpful.

Rosa Melendez : And for me...like we discussed the Umatilla Indian, I mean, having the...the tribe and the council say we will pay for everything. You know, we normally rent this auditorium out for X number of dollars, but we're gonna give it for free for this training. And we normally charge for the catering, but we're gonna do the catering for free to bring...to me, that was a huge commitment from the tribe to try to get people to the table and to the training.

Bill Froehlich: Wow. So having that partner to work with, you know, much like the professor at the university in Anchorage

Rosa Melendez : Yes, yes, yes, yes.

Bill Froehlich: The catalyst for the dialogue, this financial support, this buy in from the community and the indigenous community was seemly so valuable to catalyze those conversations.

Rosa Melendez : And...it was attempted again in Idaho...successful, but I don't think as successful because it wasn't just necessarily a tribe, you know? I think having the tribe, financial security of being able to pay for the auditorium and do for certain things made a big difference.

Bill Froehlich: <affirmative> So I wanna go, we were talking about some shifts in federal policy, that affected your work at CRS. And I also wanna know, have you observed, since you left law enforcement, as US Marshals observed changes, changing in policing strategy and tactics that have impacted your work in CRS?

Rosa Melendez : Well, I don't know...I wouldn't say impacted, but, since I left, I mean the whole George Floyd incident changed law enforcement. <Affirmative>. And I don't, you know, I can't say how it's impacted CRS. I can talk about how it's impacted law enforcement, 'cause you know, I still work with law enforcement more as a friend like the police chief of Seattle was a friend of mine.

Bill Froehlich: Sure.

Rosa Melendez : Current police, chief as a friend of mine and we will discuss issues and discuss things about policing, but it's really changed policing. It's changed policing a lot and in some ways I think there's floundering, you know, not knowing what direction to go and other areas. I think it's, it's showing that community policing was more the key and I've always been an advocate of community policing.

Bill Froehlich: And so in your time at CRS, when you were a regional director, did you see that shift to community policing? Did you see that happen and did it impact your work or were there other shifts in policing from your time at CRS that impacted your work as a conciliator...regional director,

Rosa Melendez : Police chiefs could also impact our work. I mean, when I was with CRS and Chief Kerlikowske was the police chief, he knew about CRS. He knew the role of CRS 'cause he was the deputy director of Cox

Bill Froehlich: <affirmative>.

Rosa Melendez : So he played a dramatic role in, I have to say, within the king county area

Bill Froehlich: The chief in Seattle or county...

Rosa Melendez : ...The Chief in Seattle. He was an advocate of CRS and whatever training we decided we wanted to do in collaboration with Seattle police department, it was "Okay. Yeah, let's do this." Like we did the Arab/Muslim/Sikh training in Seattle and he was all for it. Yeah. Let's partner, let's do it. You know, some police chiefs were not as sure of themselves. Kerlikowske was very...very sure of his policing style and knew what he wanted to do. You get a brand new police street, that's never been a chief and they're more hesitant to try to do things. Sometimes they're swayed more by the politics of the organization or city council. But police chiefs can really change, can really have an impact on how CRS works. If they really understand CRS, they're an advocate and they can be a jam. If they don't understand how CRS works...And you know, first of all, most of the police departments in the United States are small law enforcement agencies.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah.

Rosa Melendez : And small law enforcement agencies. Aren't really fond of large...police departments. So, sometimes smaller police chiefs. I remember one case that I worked on...and with a police chief and it was the, again, the Latino community that felt they were being stopped. They were being harassed. They were being in a sense forced to move out of that community. And I went and I met with the police chief and I found out that we had gone to the police academy together. And so I spoke with him and talked to...said these are the perceptions and why don't we have a meeting, you know, with the community. So community members can discuss their perceptions with you. And he was like "no, I treat everybody the same. This is BS. You know, we've never done this.

Rosa Melendez : I know all my officers" and okay, fine. So then I met with the mayor because another complaint came in. So I met with the mayor and I said, you know, this is something that has to be dealt with. I mean, we're having problems here. And the mayor made the decision to have a dialogue, but the police chief and his Lieutenant and his Sergeant fought it, of course the dialogue wasn't successful. Because if you have three people from the police department, the three leadership that don't want to dialogue then it's not successful. You know, I mean, it was a tough case. And, I remember one time after...one of the meetings, I went home crying. I just went home crying because I personally thought of my father. My father...didn't speak English very well.

Rosa Melendez : He was from Puerto Rico and spoke with a very heavy accent. And I just said, oh my God, I can't do this. I'm now I'm being very sided on this whole issue. So I went back to the office and I told Sandra Blair, who was a senior consolidator. I said, you gotta handle this case. I can't do it anymore because I'm personally involved. A month later, she comes into the office crying. She goes, "I can't do it. I can't do it." You know, the police chief in this...I'm going , "yeah, I know". So

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Two contrasting examples of how police leadership can support or thwart...

Rosa Melendez : You know, I mean, Kerlikowske was supportive of his police force, but he also knew that sometimes you've got some officers that have problems, you know. The majority are good officers, you know, and I know that I worked with them. And you there's one or two that can make it terrible for everybody. But this particular police chief would not even...I mean, like I told him, I said, "okay, so there's a car accident." This was how it started. "There's a car accident. And the lady that gets rear ended is Latina, but she gets the ticket. And then you tell her that you're gonna send immigration to her house tomorrow. And she goes home. She's lived in the community for 10, 15 years, her kids go to school. Her and her husband pull the kids out of school and move 'cause they're scared because they're not legal citizens of the, you know, they're undocumented." And I said, "so you're going to have...you only got two officers on the force at that time of night. And you're going to put your hundred percent of your officers on this one case...of a traffic accident and you're leaving the rest of your city unprotected."

Yeah. And he couldn't see it or he didn't want to see it.

Bill Froehlich: Thank you for, thanks for sharing that..illustration. Can I ask you a few more questions about if you've seen changes due to particular issues specifically...the civil rights movement and protest movements have changed. For example, black lives matter has a different strategy from the civil rights movement of the sixties and seventies. White supremist and Antifa movements are new or are doing different things than they used to, their interacting and engagements differently. How does that, how is that affected CR CRSs work based on your experience as a regional director?

Rosa Melendez : Okay. Antifa was barely coming up. I mean, Antifa, I think really showed its head during the WTO in Seattle. <Affirmative> Yeah, I was the US Marshals at that time, but I know for our office, it was harder for us to make a relationship with anybody in Antifa. So if you don't have a relationship or a point of contact, it's really hard to meet with them. And many of them wore masks, so you didn't know who they were.

So, during...my time, Antifa was still pretty new. White supremacist, I mean, they were just very vocal about what they believed...And the whole Butler situation that was before me, the Butler ranch was before me, but there was still remnants of it when I came in and it was mostly the community, that fought them and sued them and won the ranch and everything else.

Bill Froehlich: Can you say more about that? I'm not familiar with that case.

Rosa Melendez : The Aryan Nation in Idaho was Coeur d'Alene or Hayden Lake. There was the leader...his last name was Butler and he had a compound, a huge compound. And there were many cross burnings, there were incidents of fights, physical violence to people of color and Native Americans in that area, which is a large community of Native Americans, the Coeur D'Alene Indians, and a group of people from Hayden, Idaho went to CRS and said, you know, we need your assistance. And Bob Lamb was one of the mediators on that. I don't know if they did a formal agreement, but worked with the community on how to train law enforcement. Problem was that some of law enforcement was part of that Aryan Nation

So...there were many dialogues, there were many trainings. Eventually I think there was a lawsuit by the community to...a Civil rights lawsuit or something like that. I'd have to look more into it Bill. I can't remember it because, like I said, it was before my time, but there were remnants of it when I came in

Bill Froehlich: The essence of the story, is...through this lawsuit, they were able to buy the ranch

Rosa Melendez : Or get the compound. Yeah.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. Fascinating

Rosa Melendez : Where he lost the compound, Butler did. And so it spread...instead of one location of the Aryan Nation in that part of Idaho living on that compound, it kind of spread out to other areas of Idaho.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. So you were talking about...how to work with, or how you dealt with white supremacists potentially as a demonstrations or, as contrasted to Antifa. Antifa was difficult to find leadership, 'cause they were a new emerging group that wore masks, you couldn't identify them. White supremacists, how...did you engage with them while you were at CRS and they were demonstrating

Rosa Melendez : First of all, many of 'em or most of 'em did not wanna come to the table and did not wanna communicate with you. So it was working with the school district about what their role, you know, what their role was. Having a dialogue with the school district administrators on when young people as have a cross burned in their yard and training the police department on how to investigate a cross burning. Sometimes it meant saying, well, if you guys don't wanna investigate the cross burning because it's not a state hate crime, you know, some states don't have hate crimes, then we'll have the FBI investigate it. And that forces local police department to say "no we'll investigate it". So training them how to investigate a hate crime. And remember many of these areas are small and don't have the specific like larger departments have a hate crime division, you know, or things like that. But training them on how to investigate a hate crime. Sometimes it was having dialogues with school administrators about the harassment at school. What their role was, you know? So sometimes it was just doing what you could with the population you had to work with and being creative <laugh>

Bill Froehlich: I love that. So, and you said most white supremacists did not wanna be in touch. Were there some that were in touch with CRS or engaged with you and did they come to the table or did they talk with you or your conciliators one on one?

Rosa Melendez : No, they...never really talked to us. They would have a message delivered to us sometimes, you know,

Bill Froehlich: Through an intermediator?

Rosa Melendez : Yeah.

Bill Froehlich: What did...that look like? Those messages?

Rosa Melendez : It was, well, it was like stay out of our area, you know. So, that's why, when we had cases in Idaho and Oregon, I very seldom let one conciliator go alone because we had a white supremacist that turned and sometimes he would call us and say, "they know you're in town". Yeah. And so I just thought for the safety of everybody, I'm gonna send two conciliators and there were too many spots in Idaho that cell phones didn't work. So.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. Fair enough. I appreciate that. So the third group, which from our perspective is shifted...how protests and civil rights activism works is the movement for black lives. Yeah. And I know this, this movement is newer. So you're shaking your head...Did you have much experience when you were at CRS with the movement for black lives?

Rosa Melendez : No, not at all. Not at all.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. It would've been right when you were retiring, I think is when it would've started.

Rosa Melendez : Yeah.

Bill Froehlich: Did you work with demonstrators activists who demanded for justice and had no interest in coming to the table to negotiate?

Rosa Melendez : The one I can think of the most that really wanted is the LGBT group, you know, especially during pride week, we worked with them a lot. I think the first time we worked with them, they were very radical about what they wanted. Like they wanted law enforcement, they wanted the permit for this and that, and very demanding <laugh>. And we met with them and said, well, you know, we can't promise that, but, you know, we can bring law enforcement to the table and see what they can do, you know? And so the first year was kind of contentious, you know, started off demanding, but, right before the parade, it worked out. The second time was less demanding. Called the groups came together, they all discussed what needed to be done and how they were gonna work with each other. Third time, they didn't even call us <laugh> they just met together again, that, to me, that's systematic change, you know, when they start coming to the table together and working things out without calling anybody to kind of facilitate the conversation.

Rosa Melendez : So that was...probably that was the most demanding group in Seattle. And that was right before I left. That was like three years before I left.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. Yeah. If some of these questions are difficult to answer...because these groups movement for black lives have merged right when you were leaving. So I appreciate you sharing these illustrations on the list. So I wanna ask you some questions about if systemic policies have impacted... you saw any impact from systemic policies on your work at CRS. Specifically, were there any changes that were made at a state or a federal level to the education system that impacted your work at CRS

Rosa Melendez : Educational? No, I can't think of any

Bill Froehlich: Likewise. Were there any changes at the state or federal level to the justice system as a whole that impacted your work CRS?

Rosa Melendez : You know, Bill I can't think of any at all

Bill Froehlich: That's fine. So just take a moment, One piece of change, certainly at the legislative level, came toward the end of your...tenure with CRS, specifically was the passage of the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act. And I could guess how that impacted some of your work, but I would like to like to hear it from you. How did that shift your work at CRS? Expand the scope? Create challenges? for you as a regional director,

Rosa Melendez : The Gay, Lesbian, Transgender, you know, Bisexual thing wasn't new in Seattle and Seattle police department already been,  trained and were already doing hate crime trainings on that. What was the greatest impact was 9/11. A large Arab Muslim community in Seattle. Mosques being burned, graffiti on mosque, gurdwaras being targeted. So for me, it was more in our area was more religion than anything else. And that meant having dialogues with the Arab Muslim and Sikh community with the local law enforcement. It just, wasn't just Seattle. We had police and sheriff from King county and Pierce county and other areas. And we had the US attorney's office involved. We also had the department of education involved because many female students in some of the schools were being harassed by their hijab's being pulled off.

And in one situation, the school officials sent the girls home and said that they created the ruckus by wearing their hijab's. So it was again, department of education, office of civil rights and CRS meeting with school administrators in that school district. And I think Ernie, oh, her name...I can't remember the secretary of education at that time had sent out a letter to all the schools stating that, you know, there were certain crimes or certain harassment that had to be dealt with where the Muslim Arab Sikh community was being targeted. And again, presenting them...Sometimes it was presenting the principal or the superintendent with the letter, from the secretary of education saying... they're not the perpetrators in this situation, they're the victims, you know, having little...

Bill Froehlich: That's, you know, I appreciate...that reflections really thoughtful. I wonder from a statutory perspective, my understanding of CRS scope, of CRS's mission was to focus on issues connected to race, color, and national origin, but Shepard/Byrd expanded that to include gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, and religion. And what you're talking about here is primarily religious issues. And so how did...How were you able to do this work and connect it to CRSs jurisdictional focus?

Rosa Melendez : Well, like you said, with the Matthew Shepard act, it extended it so we were able to work on it. At first it wasn't, you know, I'm trying to remember exactly. I remember when 9/11 happened and Gil Kerlikowske was a police chief and, the FBI SAC...oh, God, I can't think of his name right now, but I called Gil Kerlikowske and then I called the FBI SAC and I said, I think we need to have a press conference where we have members leadership from there, Muslim Sikh community there. And the police department in the US attorney's office talks about, that, you know, we support the Arab Muslim community and will investigate hate crimes. Ah, but I can't remember if that was before or after the Matthew Shepard act.

Bill Froehlich: I think Shepard Byrd was 2009 or 2010.

Rosa Melendez : Okay. So

Bill Froehlich: It was before, but you know, this is just a curiosity, if you recall, how, and I also wonder were, it sounds like their post 9/11, there was a significant increase in cases connected to Muslim communities and populations...

Rosa Melendez : We didn't do...it as religion. We did it as ethnicity

Bill Froehlich

Okay.

Rosa Melendez : Yeah. Arab Sikhs. And we did several training classes on that.

Bill Froehlich: Okay, great. And was that also a shift? Was there, were you encouraged to do that by DC? By national? Yeah. Was it a local decision? Yeah. Okay.

Rosa Melendez : In fact, Sherry Freeman was the director at that time. <affirmative> and George Bush was in the office and that's when we developed the Arab Muslim Sikh training program.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. The indigenous convening, you referenced, in Oregon earlier on the Indian or the native American reservation, that training, did that take place after Shepard Byrd was past? Do you recall?

Rosa Melendez : I think it was after. I'm pretty sure it was after.

Bill Froehlich: Okay.

Rosa Melendez : That was,

Bill Froehlich: So about how you picked cases specifically. Who decides the type of cases you take? Was it the conciliator? Was it you, was it the...were you encouraged by the national office? Who's making those decisions ultimately about what cases to take?

Rosa Melendez : First of all, a case would come in and we would normally discuss it as a group, because we were a small office, you know, there were three, four of us and, and it was this a case that we could really handle what, you know, what was...what could we do. We talked about what were some of the issues and who knew the parties, or who was better in communication with this type of the community? There were some that just weren't cases, you know, they were individuals that had problems with somebody else, so that just not a case, but we would discuss it. We would discuss it as a team in our staff meeting. And we would discuss, you know, what methods should be used or what strategies they should do to gain entry or to handle the case. We discussed every single case every Monday morning.

Bill Froehlich: I'd love to be a fly on the wall for those meetings. That is for sure...So you mentioned you had three or four staff in the regional office, is that sufficient? No. What...does a fully staffed CRS look like?

Rosa Melendez : Well, I think when I first was aware of CRS and Seattle, I was a police officer and they had about six people, I think, six conciliators, five or six conciliators that the regional director...and they had a full-time secretary or, you know, administrative, person. When we were there, we had a part-time administrator. I mean, you know, administrative assistant, which meant that I did a lot of the typing and a lot of, you know, the admin administrative work there. It just...and many times we've just said, we don't have the staff to handle the case, or we don't have the budget to handle the case. I mean, there might be a case in Alaska and that was costly to be there. You know, it's like a three-hour flight there, sometimes five-hour flights and, hotels are expensive and everything is more expensive than the continental United States.

Rosa Melendez : And so sometimes you couldn't take those cases. So budget and staffing played a lot on the cases we were able to handle. I know under Bob Land, the regional director before, me and before they were cut, they had a large staff. They had a full, I mean, they had somebody that was an educational specialist, somebody that was law enforcement, somebody that was corrections, you know, all these other things. When you have a staff of three, you know, two conciliators and the regional director, you have to kind of become the Jack of all trades.

Bill Froehlich: I understand, being the Jack of all trades in a small office. It's an incredible the work that you did with a small office. Did you ever partner with any specific organizations to stretch your resources? And what organizations did you partner with?

Rosa Melendez : On education, We partnered a lot with the Department of Education, Office of Civil Rights. We partnered with them a lot. Trying to think who else...

Bill Froehlich: Were there any state agencies, for example, that you partnered with in Oregon or Idaho or elsewhere?

Rosa Melendez : Very seldom. One time we partnered with the Washington state department of corrections and did a training program with them. And again, it was regarding regarding indigenous artifacts, 'cause, oh, you know, in the Northwest paddles are very sacred because of the waterways.

Bill Froehlich: Okay.

Rosa Melendez : In the Department of Corrections, they saw a paddle as a instrument to harm somebody. So we did partner with them on a couple things

Bill Froehlich: That sounds like training and indigenous cultural competency.

Rosa Melendez : Yeah...Yes. We partnered with Seattle police department quite a bit on training programs.

Bill Froehlich: OK.

Rosa Melendez : And we partnered with Olympia police department on a training program. That was about it.

Bill Froehlich: OK. So you mentioned this a couple of times, in the context, you know, with respect to US senators from the various states, you generally had support from them and they were, you know, they weren't opposed to the work you were doing. You also mentioned sometimes there might be pressure from a district attorney or US attorney. Did you ever face pressure or your conciliators face pressure to stay in your lane from other agencies or other offices, whether that's DOJ or some other federal or state office holder. Obviously gaining entry is different. From my perspective, when the police chief says, "we don't want you," or, you know, "we've got this under control" or "you're the big city cop," you know, that's different from staying in your lane.

Rosa Melendez : In the Northwest region 10, we never had a problem. I mean...you know, before you did a case, you had to notify the US attorney. I mean...the US attorney and the senator's office, that there was a case. And if they had any questions to contact you. Sometimes they did, Sometimes they didn't. <affirmative> CRS had a good reputation in the Northwest. So there wasn't...there really wasn't a problem with the senators

Rosa Melendez : Had really good relationships with all the US attorneys. So that was never a problem.

Bill Froehlich: Did...Was there any tension between DOJs office of civil rights, or an investigations arm of DOJ?

Rosa Melendez : They didn't really exist in the Northwest. The civil rights office was more DC. They'd only come out for cases, but there were civil rights attorneys out of the US attorney's office and they normally worked with us.

Bill Froehlich: OK.

Bill Froehlich: So, and a couple more questions that you might have been...Just emerging as you were departing CRS, if you don't have clear or if you don't have concrete answers, that's fine. First is about fake news. So called fake news and misinformation, you talked a little bit about this from some of the newspapers and rural communities in the region, but, you know, fake news and misinformation have been, become more prevalent certainly in the last six years, seven years. But you probably encountered fake news as well. And misinformation, particularly, did you have any strategies for combating misinformation?

Rosa Melendez : I did not. I mean, you know, you could try to talk, I mean, I think at one time I tried to talk to, and I can't remember the name of the town, but their little community newspaper and explained to them that that was not what we were doing. And basically I was told I was a liar, you know, 'cause he knew this is what we were doing and I just decided at that time, "Hey, they're gonna believe what they believe." I can't change their mind. We'll just continue to do our job and do it the best we can, you know? And you, I mean...Idaho is a large, there's a large indigenous community there, a large native American community in the Northwest. There's, you know, Oregon, Idaho, Washington, and Alaska, we have a huge indigenous community. And, lots of times, the majority community was against them because they had fishing rights, they had water rights, they had, you know, all these rights. And so they, those newspapers were gonna use print what they wanted to print. And there was no way we could tell 'em that they were wrong, you know, and we were the federal government. We were a big brother taking their rights away. Right.

Bill Froehlich: So another, an emerging topic...Social media. Did you have Facebook, for example, Instagram, Twitter, et cetera, TikTok I don't think was around. But did social media play a role in your work with advocates in communities towards the end of your career?

Rosa Melendez : My staff, we were not really well versed in social media, so whatever information we got, we got from Wakabayashi...Ron Wakabayashi's Region. Cause they were very into, you know, my office was senior citizens. We were all, you know, at an age and we just didn't, really grasp that much. I mean, we'd have to ask our kids or something, but if there was anything that was on social media that we needed to know about the Northwest, Ron would give me a buzz to let me know what was found, you know, so no, we weren't, I mean, I was the baby of the group and I was getting ready to retire. So that gives you any hint of my, my staff. <laugh>

Bill Froehlich: I'm gonna tell Ron that you have implied that, you know, he's young <laugh

Rosa Melendez : He's a social media guru.

Bill Froehlich: Oh, okay. Well, so I wonder, but you heard about what was happening on social media a little bit through him and his staff. Were there any benefits to you as a conciliator from getting that information or what, what were some of the benefits, and what were some of the challenges that you knew it was out there? What were some of the challenges about social media?

Rosa Melendez : The thing that social media did for us in region 10 is just keep us abreast of certain things that were being talked about that we were not aware of at the time, excuse me, my dog's trying to get in <laugh>. Yeah, so I mean, it told us that a trend was coming or there was discussion about certain things. So it gave us the opportunity to keep an eye on it and to look for it.

Bill Froehlich: So you weren't using social media to listen, for example

Rosa Melendez : Kind of, yeah.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. That's helpful.

Rosa Melendez : Hey, I didn't belong to Facebook and Twitter until after I retired, so <laugh> and I still don't do it. I mean, I look at it periodically

Bill Froehlich: I'm there are other questions on social media and I'm, I'll just stop there. That's that's perfectly fine. So, I've got a few more questions, then we might wrap up for the day, just it real quick.

Rosa Melendez : Okay.

Bill Froehlich: So, Rosa, do you have any advice for conciliators or regional directors as they seek to navigate the bureaucracy of CRS and DOJ? Generally?

Rosa Melendez : My advice is, is just to follow your instincts on what needs to be done, you know...sometimes you can help community or help organizations just by talking to them on the phone. You know, it doesn't necessarily have to be a visit and giving them some options of what they can do or organizations they can call that, you know, if it's something that CRS or the federal government or DOJ does not want you to work on, but you have some knowledge about, you can give them information on where they can go and what they can do. So, you know, I follow your instincts. My instincts have been good for me all along, you know, I mean, I think I've been successful with that, but it's just, you know, I mean, even like there was one Confederate flag incident in Washington state. I remember. And I told them we don't particularly work on that, but, you know, there's the office of civil rights, you know, in that community. And I gave them other options where they could go,

Bill Froehlich: Oh, thank, great, good advice. What sources would you advise someone entering this line of work maybe as a new conciliator, to review or consult or what should they observe as they're beginning to engage as a effective conciliator?

Rosa Melendez : My advice would be if they could shadow a seasoned conciliator or maybe even a week. I know when I first came in, that was being done where we could shadow somebody.

Bill Froehlich: Who did you shadow?

Rosa Melendez : I was supposed to shadow Marty Walsh <affirmative> But it never got set up, but he kept in contact. He became like a mentor for me. He kept in contact with me all the time and asked me what cases I was working on, what I tried to do with it. He would explain to me what he was working on and what he was doing. So that was really... Good for me, you know. But I still think mentoring, I developed...a mentoring book for CRS. I don't know where it is. It was under, what director, it was after Sherry Freeman, I remember that. But I can't remember his name right now. And a mentoring book on what would be successful for conciliators and involved that the conciliator would travel to the senior conciliators location, stay with them for a week or the senior conciliator go to the new conciliators location. It talked about, you know, having meetings with them periodically...until the person felt comfortable. I just don't think they get that anymore. They, you know, when I was leaving, they just...number one budget played a role in that budget, played a big role in that. But my suggestion would be identifying someone that's a senior conciliator and asking them to be your mentor.

Bill Froehlich: Anything from Marty Walsh that particularly strikes you, that you wanna share as part of this.

Rosa Melendez : He was gentle, compassionate, had a lot of compassion and seemed to really understand people. And he, in some ways he used his sense of humor for entree and other times he used his compassion. He never played by any book. He played more...and what I liked about him is he played more by instinct.

Bill Froehlich: Thank you.

Rosa Melendez : He was...a fabulous, fabulous conciliator and by the time I was the regional director, he was a regional director. So he trained me more on some of the handling of cases, but very...I wish I had spent more time with him.

Bill Froehlich: Sure. Who else did you learn from, as you were navigating work at CRS?

Rosa Melendez : Oh, Patricia Glenn was a good person. Ron was a good person. Probably the, I would have to say Patricia Glenn, Marty Walsh, and Ron were kind of like my mentors kind of guide me through a lot of things. Another person for me that, that gave me a lot of insight or direction was Diane Mitchum and Becky Monroe.

Bill Froehlich: And with respect to Patricia Glenn, is there anything specific that you recall, that stands out in your mind... Advice from her?

Rosa Melendez : She was a great trainer. She had a lot of emphasis on training and, you know, when I first came into CRS, I didn't have that much emphasis on training, but I really, as time went on, I...became more towards the training...wanting training.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. And Ron, what about Ron?

Rosa Melendez : Oh my God, Ron. Ron just seemed to know a little bit about everything, you know, knew when to turn something into a mediation. Knew contacts in the Northwest that I didn't know. 'Cause he was at one time he was the national president of the Japanese American citizen league. So he knew many contacts, the Asian community that I did not know that was beneficial for me.

Bill Froehlich: Yeah. Excellent. Thank you. That's really, really helpful. Do you have any written accounts of what you did in any particular cases or I know you have, you said you wrote a mentoring guide for...it sounds like in the late 2000s. Yeah. Would be really, really interesting to see if I can get our hands on...

Rosa Melendez : Andre Harris. That was director Andre Harris. I wrote it for him.

Bill Froehlich: Okay. I may look for that. Give just one minute, go on pause.