Rosa Melendez -- Part 3 of 3

Rosa Melendez was the Regional Director for CRS Region 10 from 2000 - 2014.

There are 3 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2 and Part 3 and The Summary This is Part 3.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXovabVOBUM

Bill Froehlich (00:00:00):Well, it's June 22nd, 2022. And I'm here with Rosa Melendez, and the third part of the oral history project revisited. So Rosa, we've talked a lot about your experience in table oriented mediation processes and community facilitation in Alaska, in Seattle with indigenous communities, with law enforcement, and others. And today I'm gonna take you through a few questions connected to street or community oriented mediation processes, meaning at marches, demonstrations, protests as well as a few other processes, generic questions, connected to table oriented mediation processes that you've been engaged in. So I wanna start today with street or community oriented processes. So when you're working at a protest or demonstration or a rally, what are your goals for engagement in those events? And did you explain those goals to the individuals involved?

Rosa Melendez (00:01:09): Well, first of all trying to make it a safe protest or a safe March, and yes, we explained that to everybody, but we tried to meet with everybody prior to the March. So we would meet with the police department because we want to make sure that the organizers has their permit and all that. Then we meet with the organizers explaining that...what route they have to follow and what they cannot block. Sometimes that works, sometimes it didn't. One time, they promised us they would not go off the route and they went up on the freeway <laugh>, you know, and by that time, you know, state patrol gets upset. The police department gets upset. So you just have to, you really do have to try to find, and sometimes it's not the person that's in charge of the protest or the March, but you have to try to find the most reasonable person to discuss this with when it goes awry, you know, you just try to find the most reasonable person you can to redirect them towards the route.

Rosa Melendez (00:02:29): There may be...the thing that some of them wanna get arrested and you, sometimes you just have to let that happen if they, if they want to get arrested, to prove a point, and the rest of the group wants to go with...you know, go along the route, then you've gotta let the ones that wanna get arrested, get arrested. But you try to make the March, the protest as safe as possible for everybody. And, you know, we discussed this, we would discuss it several times with the organizers. The police department's gone through this many, many times, they know the routine. It's just that you have to meet the, the precinct commander or precinct commanders. If you're gonna go into two precincts and meet with the Sergeant, that's gonna be on duty at that time.

Rosa Melendez (00:03:24): And the team that's been assigned to the protest, that's easy, but...and they're pretty, like I said, they're pretty well versed on what their role is. Sometimes the organizing committee does not wanna do what, you know, what needs to be done, but that's very rare. Most people...most people will, I mean, most organizers will, you know, meet with you and do what you've asked and, stay within the parameters. If I had a team...that would be up front with the main...The beginning of the protest, a team that would be, you know, in the middle and one at the end. Also if it was a group like in Alaska, when we had the We the People March, which was with the indigenous community, there were some white supremacist groups, or some hate groups that would wanna interfere...in the protest.

Rosa Melendez (00:04:44): So whatever team I had, I would get them plus the main organizers, like five or 10 of the organizers, along with the commander...police commander that was gonna be on site. And we would practice what their role was. So we would have...we would pretend we were antagonizer in how to move antagonizers away or how to summon the police department. Now in Alaska, Chief Monegan was very, very good. He gave us radios so we could communicate directly with the police department on a different frequency. So we...trained the team we had on how to avoid confrontation. It was very successful. It worked very, very well.

Bill Froehlich (00:05:37): Can you go back to this practice again? So I wanna make sure I heard this correctly. So you wouldn't, when there was a white supremacist group coming to counter protest, you would bring 10 of the leaders, 10 of the organizers of the...March or demonstration in, along with law enforcement and yourselves, and you would be the agitators, and you would ask them to deescalate you in that practice. How did that say more about how that was set up and how that worked?

Rosa Melendez (00:06:06): Okay. Well, you know, we had role players, so part of the CRS team was the role player. And we had part of the organizers that were the role players, and we had some people marching and the police being in front, and then the CRS staff on the side, and maybe an antagonizer would come in and start pushing the person. And we trained them instead of pushing or talking back to them, continue to move forward. You know, 'cause each organizer was responsible for a section of the protest. So making sure that that section just continued to move on and not engage with the protestor...And CRS, you know, staff person assisting the organizer in that section. If it got to the point that CRS couldn't control the person, then they had permission to call on the radio to let the police department know we had an antagonizer or somebody that was...could be physical at such and such a location.

Bill Froehlich (00:07:16): Hmm. Wow. That's fascinating.

Rosa Melendez (00:07:18): So that was the day before day before the March and you know, the We the People March was an annual March, so we knew what to expect. It wasn't like it was a new March. We knew what we expected. We knew we needed about...five or six CRS staff, you know. So we had Sandra Blair, Walter Atkinson. We had Diane Snyder. I had a guy from Texas and I had a person from Illinois. And...so yeah, that's what we did, but you know...we role played. I wanted everybody to be on the same page on, you know, what we did if we had somebody that wanted to create chaos and how to stop the chaos, not to participate in it, to continue to move forward. The organizer continued to more move forward. The CRS person tried to negotiate or talk to the person if that didn't work, then call law enforcement.

Bill Froehlich (00:08:27): Did you have any other...The role play idea is fascinating. Were the organizing groups, the organizers ever reluctant to engage in this role play or because this took place every year, they were like, "oh, okay, let's go to...this role play exercise, let's practice our skills to make sure we don't get our people hurt."

Rosa Melendez (00:08:47): Well, there was never a problem with it because we dealt with the same organizer every year and they knew what expect from us. And...so we just didn't have...It was usually...like Antifa or some of the groups that would come up to Alaska to try to interfere. But, the police department being as cooperative as possible with us. Walter Monegan was the police chief at that time, he then became the head of public safety under Sarah Palin. Okay. So he, you know, we worked with him for years...and he knew I was law enforcement. I think that bonded us. And so he was always, 'cause I let him know that I wouldn't let our staff misuse the radio, you know, and that we would practice.

Bill Froehlich (00:09:52): That's good. What community was the We the People March in?

Rosa Melendez (00:09:57): ...indigenous community

Bill Froehlich (00:10:01): What town in Alaska?

Rosa Melendez (00:10:03): Oh, it was Anchorage. It was Anchorage and all the different...they call they're called corporations in Alaska. All the different corporations would come and it was...the protest was to keep their rights of sustainability.

Bill Froehlich (00:10:24): Okay. So you, this was one effort...this a role player simulation was one effort to potentially deescalate to try to deter violence. Were there other techniques or strategies that you used to deter violence or deescalate during a protest?

Rosa Melendez (00:10:44): No, that seemed to work with us. We did it with protests in Seattle. We did it a couple times in Portland. Portland was more radical. Portland was harder to deal with. And, a lot of it depended on the cooperation of the police chief. If you didn't have....a really good cooperation from the police chief, you weren't going to, it wasn't going to work. And some police chiefs just did not feel that their agencies needed training beforehand, but we would...Try to meet everybody the day before...Walk through the route, you know, 'cause whatever team I had, I wanted them to walk through the route so they knew what the route was and you know, what were some of the choke points. And...the team could ask questions, you know, before the event. So I always had the team fly in before the event. So we had time to debrief and talk about it. And then after the event, we would talk about the pros and cons the after report.

Bill Froehlich (00:11:58): Great. Do you specific lessons learned from those after reports that resonate that you want to share?

Rosa Melendez (00:12:08): The one after report was in Seattle and it was after a black male had been shot and we didn't have a lot of time to organize. And in fact it was the police department that called us to let us know there was a protest going on, you know? And so, at that time it was Sandra Blair and I, it was like nine o'clock at night. And the protest went on till like seven o'clock the next morning. And, so people were just acting or just acting crazy, you know, gave them opportunity to act crazy. And so we had to find the minister that arranged the protest and meet with him and explain to him that if anybody got hurt or anybody got arrested, it was on him. And, once we were able to give him to understand that, then he started having people organize and protest peacefully.

Rosa Melendez (00:13:25): So the lesson learned on that was to try to get...I mean, if there's an incident to try to get as much information on what's gonna happen in the community, it's really hard to be after the fact, to run into the protest and try to find who's organizing the protest and, you know, what was their planned route. And this was just a spontaneous one, but it just really taught me that we had talked to the minister. I'm not gonna say his name. We had talked to the minister several times...before the protest and after the shooting. And he promised us that wouldn't happen. I really think that it taught me that I should be prepared. You know, I mean, even though they said, they're not gonna protest that, and he was kind of a radical minister, so I should have suspected that that was gonna happen. He wasn't gonna tell us everything.

Bill Froehlich (00:14:31): Can you say more about the...you said liability...is the organizer liable for a protest or how does that work? Or how did...

Rosa Melendez (00:14:42): I don't know. Technically, I don't know if they're liable, but I told him as a minister he's responsible for his flock, you know, he's trying to be a biblical terms and all that. You brought them out here. If somebody gets hurt, somebody gets shot. The buses have to keep going through and somebody gets run over. This is all on you know? And I think once it got that he kind of started putting his flock in order...So it was easier to talk sometimes to the minister rather than community organizers, 'cause community organizers, I don't think have the same...respect or the same...don't feel they have the same duties that maybe a minister has for their congregation.

Bill Froehlich (00:15:41): Yeah. Morally? ethically?

Rosa Melendez (00:15:44): Yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:15:45): Yeah. Those are heightened questions for ministers. Really great example.

Rosa Melendez (00:15:52): And, you know, and the protest that we had...the protest that we participated in...Tommy Battles...in his region was very different than Seattle. He had ministers that formed what it was called, the God squad and they were kind of the monitors. I mean, we just walked beside them. Those were easy protests <laugh> and...I did try to start one up here, but it didn't have the same effect that...

Bill Froehlich (00:16:28): Why not?

Rosa Melendez (00:16:30): I think that the south is...Southern ministers are normally a lot of the ministers down there were African American and the ministers up here were of all ethnic groups and they were of all different religions. And it just didn't seem, I mean, there were some that were interested and wanted to do it, but trying to get them there to do it. <affirmative> I know when we had the...The Jewish Federation...shooting where, a white male went in and shot, went into the Jewish Federation office and shot up people. I went to, oh, what was it called? It was Washington Association of Churches, trying to get all the ministers to work together and making a joint statement or something like that. Some would, some would not. So we had some...Imam's from the mosque that participated with the rabbi's, which was good. You know, in fact it was...a Muslim gentleman from Eastern Washington, so that I was able to get the Muslim community and the Imam's together with the rabbis and some Catholic...Priests came and assisted, but it doesn't seem to have the same...momentum or the same meaning that the south had. The south...It seemed like...It was just much easier to organize the ministers down there.

Bill Froehlich (00:18:24): Okay. Thank you for the comparison to Thomas Battles was the regional director in region five, which was the Southeastern United States

Rosa Melendez (00:18:34): Region four

Bill Froehlich (00:18:35): Region four. Thank you. Southeastern United States. All right. You are the former CRSer, not me. So...one couple things stood out from your initial explanation. You said you tried to find the most reasonable person, maybe not the leader, the formal leader, but someone else who's respected. How would you do that?

Rosa Melendez (00:18:59): Well, you know, if it was in Seattle, it was easy because I lived in Seattle for many, many years. I, you know, was a police officer in Seattle. And before a police officer, I worked for the youth accountability program. So I had the opportunity to work with many people and I worked in politics. So I had the opportunity to work with many people. So I kind of knew who were level headed people, and sometimes didn't let the event lead them. So...I knew them. If I didn't know them, Sandra Blair may have known who was there. Walter worked in, Walter, lived in the community and worked in the community, or he might know somebody and Diane was involved in the Latino community. So she might know someone. So it was, you know, one of us knew somebody in the community, but now if it was in Idaho, we had to depend on the context that we knew in Idaho to.

Rosa Melendez (00:20:11): I mean, I would say, okay, if this goes awry, who do we seek out? Or who do I meet with before the event to talk to them like, yes, this person's the organizer, but...you're as longstanding member of the community. And you've worked on different projects in the community. Will you be able to assist us if this goes awry. So it was, I mean, you have to do the, the work in front and you couldn't let those people go. You had to keep in contact with them all the time, because you never knew when there was gonna be a situation that would go, you know...and what was gonna kick it off. So, like Walter was responsible for the state of Oregon. Diane Snyder was responsible for Idaho. I think no, Walter was responsible for Idaho. Diane had Oregon. Sandra had Washington state and I had Alaska.

Bill Froehlich (00:21:17): Okay. So you, there's one other phrase that stood out that I wanted to follow up with. You said, generally the organizers would do what you'd ask of them. Like, you'd make some ask of them. One of those I gathered was to follow the parade group or the protest route that was previously identified. What else would you ask of organizers to do

Rosa Melendez (00:21:44): That...You know, we didn't want any of the group that they were leading to be physical with anybody <affirmative>, we didn't want derogatory language or racial language. God, I wish I had my cheat sheet. I don't have it with them. Like, we would talk about the rules of conduct, you know, there's A, B, C, D, and I'd go through them. And everybody would say, "yeah, yeah, yeah." You know, and...then, like I said, sometimes...I'll just talk about one time where there was another shooting in Seattle and NAACP had a new young leader. Now I knew the previous leader in NAACP. I also knew the state director of NAACP. And they all agreed that we were gonna follow this trade route. Well, the new young leader of NAACP decided he was gonna go on the freeway.

Rosa Melendez (00:23:00): So now I have the commander and lieutenants of SPD, Seattle police department, looking at me like "you promised me." And I'm like, you know, this wasn't part of the plan. So I had to go get some of the older generation NAACP people to say, "Hey, you guys, this wasn't part of the plan. Can you help us get the group back, you know, on the streets and off the freeway." And they did, but like I said, the ones that chose to be arrested got arrested. And sometimes you just gotta let that happen. <affirmative>, and it's not a failure on your part. It's, I mean, if they don't tell you, if they're not honest with you after that, we never trusted what that person told us, you know? Cause I mean, I have to live by your word. If you tell me you're gonna follow the route and then you don't, I'm not gonna trust you the next time you lead us in a parade.

Rosa Melendez (00:23:59): And I would tell them that I would say, you know, and I knew him personally, I'd say, I don't trust you, you know? And I'm going to be watching to make sure you stay within what we talk about. And then some people didn't wanna get a permit for the, you know, and I go, well, if you don't get a permit, you're gonna get arrested. Cause you can't block city streets. So, you know, but we would go through the ABCs of what did I call 'em...the rules of courtesy or something like that, but no, I don't have that sheet with me anymore. <laugh>

Bill Froehlich (00:24:35): That's OK. This is great...So did you ever train demonstrators or advocates in order to help them more effectively advocate for their own interests?

Rosa Melendez (00:24:48): I didn't. I think Sandy did Sandra Blair did a group and I think Diane did a group.

Bill Froehlich (00:24:58): And what, what was involved in that training?

Rosa Melendez (00:25:03): I think with Sandra...she worked with a community in Eastern Washington and I can't, I know it was with the Latino community, 'cause it was always a Latino community. 'cause it was a lot of migrant workers in Eastern Washington because of the orchards and you know, all that. And it was just, I think she talked to them about what their rights were, but you know, when you, when you deal with the migrant community that our migrant workers, they're not going to do a lot of things because they don't wanna lose their jobs and they're not really gonna rock the boat. So sometimes you had to get a person that was a citizen of the United States, 'cause many of them are undocumented <affirmative> and many of 'em, even though they have rights as an individual or as a human being, they didn't want to really rock the boat. So you really had to work with the community that was the established Latino community. Sad thing about that was lots of them had already decided I'm a citizen and I, you know, I don't have to help this community.

Bill Froehlich (00:26:22): Yeah. Wow.

Rosa Melendez (00:26:23): But...they wouldn't get their paychecks telling them to call, like they had the right to call...the employment, you know, department of labor

Bill Froehlich (00:26:37): Did you ever, or your colleagues ever provide self marshaling training or other training?

Rosa Melendez (00:26:43): Oh yeah, we started that...was, that was something we started every single time.

Bill Froehlich (00:26:49): Okay. Can you say more about self marshaling?

Rosa Melendez (00:26:53): Yeah. Um, the, the last one. Oh, my dog barking. I'm sorry. Um,

Bill Froehlich (00:26:59): That's okay. That's that's the world we live in.

Rosa Melendez (00:27:03): Yeah. we would, like look when they started having gay parades in Seattle. The, one of the leaders in the LGBT group called us and said...we want to have a March, what do we do? So we told 'em you need a permit, you need to do this, you need to do that. And we kinda handheld...we kind of held their hand and walked them through it, what they needed. And then we had them meet with members of the police department, like introducing them to the commander of the precinct...who would be the Lieutenant and the sergeants, that would be part of that March or that protest. We would then talk about the route that they had to go. And then we did the same thing that we did with marches. We would pretend to be, you know, antagonist of the parade and pushing them out and telling them what to do and training them how to do it and...how to have law enforcement, you know, near you. So you could call out the person.

Bill Froehlich (00:28:27): So when you...

Rosa Melendez (00:28:29): It's not really easy, it is easy. But, you know...

Bill Froehlich (00:28:34): There's a lot of people involved that can be complicated.

Rosa Melendez (00:28:36): Everybody has their own agenda and, it can be very, very confusing and the agenda may not be the agenda that the organizer has.

Bill Froehlich (00:28:46): Oh, okay. <affirmative> Can you say more about those competing agendas? during a demonstration?

Rosa Melendez (00:28:54): Well, this wasn't, this wasn't with me, but it was just like the last one with the George Floyd incident. And the reason I know about that is that Chief Best is a friend of mine. And...we talked quite a bit after each demonstration. But there was a group of people that just wanted a peaceful protest mingled in that group were people, they didn't know that was part of Antifa, that was part of white supremacist...that had other agendas. And their agenda was to fight with the police, you know, or be more confrontational with the police. So the organizer doesn't know everybody that's in their group. And...as you're marching, sometimes people latch onto the March that we're not part of the March. And that's how that is really how the first George Floyd protest in Seattle went haywire. Because the front of the group were the legitimate organizers and protesters that wanted a peaceful protest, other, groups latched onto that. And the police weren't prepared for that because they were prepared for what the organizers told them they were gonna do. And that's, I think that if I was still doing it today, that would be a lesson learned that the organizer doesn't...can't always guarantee what the group's gonna do

Bill Froehlich (00:30:47): Valuable, valuable for sharing that. I appreciate that when you were providing, self marshaling training and other similar training, for example, at the We the People March in Alaska with the law enforcement and the organizers, did you still, were you still neutral? Was that a neutral role or were you planning the role of a consultant in providing that training?

Rosa Melendez (00:31:11): I felt we were neutral because we didn't want members of the police department to get injured and we didn't want members of the community to get injured. And those were both of our customers. It was the people protesting and law enforcement. That was my...Customer base or my clients. However you wanna look at it. And as long as I kept them both safe, I was being neutral.

Bill Froehlich (00:31:35): Okay. So were there often other parties or other groups involved in your efforts? I can imagine in a large demonstration, six folks from CRS, won't cut it. That's not enough. So how is there a way you scaled up? Did you partner with other organizations?

Rosa Melendez (00:31:53): Oh, well, you know, sometimes the organizer let's say, okay, I'm trying to think. Let's say if there was...What is it? Labor day, May Day. May Day . . .

Bill Froehlich (00:32:04): May Day is in May, Labor Day is in September

Rosa Melendez (00:32:07): Yeah. The May Day one was more labor oriented, right? I think, yeah. Anyway, so you would, might have like El Centro de la Raza participating in it. And so...I would meet with the director of El Centro. You may also have...the Seattle urban league involved in it. So you meet with the urban league director and the person that's gonna be able to be participating that. You may have, college students that are gonna participate and you may meet with their leadership. So depending on how many different groups were involved in it, you try to meet with those groups. But again, like I said...I think I retired in 2014. So I think in 2009 or 10, we started noticing that fringe groups starting to come in, but they were outnumbered by the peaceful protestors, but as they started gaining numbers, as the fringe started gaining numbers, you know, the whole thing changed. That's what I see. But you know...Most of the organizations, they wanted peaceful protests. Nobody wanted anybody hurt. Many of them brought their kids, you know, they don't want their kids hurt.

Bill Froehlich (00:33:41): Yeah.

Rosa Melendez (00:33:43): And, you know, the established organizations are the ones that are gonna help keep their...organization members in line. So you don't have to have a bunch of, you know, you don't have to have a bunch of police and you don't have to have a bunch of CRS. I mean, Sandy and I handled the last We the People March by ourselves, two people. <laugh>

Bill Froehlich (00:34:12): How many protesters there...how many demonstrators?

Rosa Melendez (00:34:15): Quite a bit, quite a bit. But, you know...like I said, the police chief was very supportive, gave us radios and had us meet the command staff and the sergeants and officers that were gonna be assigned to the protest. And so they knew us, we knew who they were

Bill Froehlich (00:34:37): At the We The People March, it sounds like you had developed trust with the organizers, with the law enforcement community and others. What about a situation where you don't know the players so well, how do you develop trust quickly? So you can be effective...in these environments?

Rosa Melendez (00:34:57): Well...normally, when a protest or a March is normally a protest, not a protest, but a March, they have to file a permit, no matter what city they're in. And if you have a good relationship with that city, they'll notify you that a permit has been granted for a protest and on the protest, it has the name of the organization and the name of the person that's in charge of it. So you can normally call them up and talk to them. And most people accepted our, you know, accepted our invitation, our offer. I can't remember people not accepting it. I mean, there were more people that wanted us than we could provide assistance for, because at the time, you know, CRS only had...I think there was just three of us at one time, you know, in the Northwest office.

Bill Froehlich (00:36:05): Now it's probably even fewer

Rosa Melendez (00:36:07): <laugh> there's one, there's one, one [inaudible]. I mean...it's impossible.

Bill Froehlich (00:36:13): Yeah. You really have to prioritize even more. So how, when you were involved in a demonstration or protest, how did you know it was time to end your involvement in the conflict?

Rosa Melendez (00:36:29): Mm. How did I know it was time to? well, you know, I think every regional director's gonna be different, but I normally started backing off or had the group back off when a relationship was developed between the organization or the organizer and the police department. Where they could plan these out themselves. And they had enough trust in each other that they didn't need us. So for me, that, I mean, if I could bring the groups together and they could honestly work out a plan without us, that was my success story.

Bill Froehlich (00:37:16): Great. Great. Anything else you wanna tell me about street oriented processes?

Rosa Melendez (00:37:26): Mm. Street oriented processes...street process is different depending on what the issue is. If it's a shooting of a person of color in the community, the emotions are higher. And sometimes there there's a group that wants prosecution, and there's a group that wants justice, which can be different than prosecution. And there's a group that just wants to be heard. So there's, I mean, when the...higher the emotion is the harder it is sometimes. Sometimes you just have to be quick and have, I mean, the language that you, the language that you use may not be the language that you would use in everyday language, you know. I know sometimes you have to be more forceful and I, you know, I was, or the team was. Yeah and so it depends on the emotion level of the protest has a different process and that street negotiation. So...and the higher the emotion is the more, I don't wanna say opinions, but the outcomes that people want are very, very different.

Bill Froehlich (00:39:13): Okay.

Bill Froehlich (00:39:14): Well, that's, that's helpful. And I hear you, it seems to make sense that outcomes are different, higher the emotion, and when there's a death in the community, or, you know, someone's been killed in the community that leads to higher emotions. And that that'll seems to make sense to me before I move back to a couple of questions that I neglected in the table oriented process. Anything else you wanna say about street mediations?

Rosa Melendez (00:39:49): Uh, I can't think of anything right now.

Bill Froehlich (00:39:53): No, that's great. This was really dynamic. I appreciate that. So we talked about a number of table oriented mediation processes. The one that sticks out...In my mind from our first conversation. Oh gosh. Back in December, was the table oriented mediation process following the shooting of the indigenous wood carver who was blind or hard of hearing?

Rosa Melendez (00:40:19): He was partially deaf, partially crippled in one leg.

Bill Froehlich (00:40:23): So, that's the one we talked about at length, and there were other issues as well, you talked about school boards. I want to talk generally about some questions generally about your techniques for table oriented mediations when you're sitting down with groups. So I wonder...you can imagine in a police involved shooting, like the, one of the wood Carver, the indigenous wood Carver, you can imagine there might be a disagreement over facts. How did you as a mediator address or deal with a disagreement over facts

Rosa Melendez (00:41:02): On the wood carver, it was really, really easy because the spokesperson for the police department stated that John T. Williams ran after the officer. And that's why the officer shot him. Everybody that knew John T. Williams knew he couldn't run. And the officer had stated that he yelled at the individual and he knows the individual heard him, but everybody that knew John T. Williams knew he was partially deaf. And he wasn't carrying a knife to injure anybody. People that knew him knew he was a wood carver, and a very good wood carver. And then the people on the street like driving by that had no interest in this whatsoever would call up and say, that's not true. That's not what happened. I saw it. You know, so that was easy. That was easy because there were people on the street that...did not know John T. Williams ... had no interest in it.

Rosa Melendez (00:42:19): I mean, they weren't family members or law enforcement officers. They were just witnesses to the whole thing. So that was really easy to lay the facts down. The officer eventually...and that was the first time the police department came back with the firearms review board where they said it was not sustainable...it was not justified. I think that helped the community a little bit. It kind of brought the level down that, first of all, the police chief or the spokesperson apologized for the first, you know, information. That helped me in talking to law enforcement as a training situation, I could talk to law enforcement and I could say to the executives, or to whoever was the public information officer, you never say, "I cannot comment on it because it's under investigation, but the person chased the officer," you have just told everybody what your outcome is.

Rosa Melendez (00:43:36): So you have to say this, "this is under investigation. It's a very traumatic experience for law enforcement and for the community. And as this investigation continues, and when it's finalized, we will discuss it then." Because you haven't told anybody what side you're on, you know, and you've told everybody, this is a traumatic experience for everybody. And then you don't have to go back and say, "I'm sorry, my facts were wrong." And nobody likes to do that once they've aired it on TV and every TV station has it. Lots of times...sometimes it's easier...it was easier for me to meet with the different police chiefs and say, "that's not what I heard happened." This is what I heard. "This is scuttlebutt in the community." And I said, "you can believe me if you want, and you don't have to believe me, but this is the community's perception of what happened and whether it's true or not, it is their perception. And that as a commander of this police department, you're gonna have to deal with that perception. And when we work with the community, you have to understand that is their perception."

Bill Froehlich (00:45:07): Regardless of whether it's true or not, that's the perception you're gonna have to deal with it.

Rosa Melendez (00:45:12): Right.

Rosa Melendez (00:45:15): Most police chiefs would listen. And most police chiefs understood that, you know. Some of the smaller city police chiefs, like I had one police chief in a small city and in Washington state, didn't believe me and felt that I was advocating for the community. And I had to say, no, I'm not...so then what I had to do, 'cause it is a small community is I had to, and this was one of those ones that wasn't successful, Bill. I had to call the mayor and the city attorney and say, "I think we need a meeting so we can all be on the same page of how the Latino community feels about this."

Rosa Melendez (00:46:11): The mayor...understood where I was coming from, city attorney understood where I was coming from. The police chief wanted to stand up for his officers and the Sergeant had no idea what my background was and accused me of citing or representing the community. And that's when I had to explain to him that I had 27 years of law enforcement and in my last seven years as an executive. And then he kind of shut up, <laugh> kind of got quiet, but I went home crying. I went home crying because, and this lasted till 11 o'clock at night. You know, I went home crying because all I could think of was my father being born and raised in Puerto Rico, who is a US citizen, but has very broken English, trying to talk to the law enforcement officer and him get getting assaulted by law enforcement. So I just...By that time I knew I was emotionally involved and I was not gonna be a good...mediator facilitator. Right. So I handed it off to Sandra Blair. She worked with them for about a month and then came in a month later one day and said, "I can't do it. I just can't...", It was just, you know, it was too emotional for all of us to try to handle it because there were people that had their mindset on what was right. And they were right. And nobody else...everybody else was wrong.

Rosa Melendez (00:48:06): So it doesn't always, I mean, it doesn't always go the way we want it. And I think that the thing I'm trying to say about this one is we as conciliators regional directors, mediators have emotions too. And some of these situations touch us and we can't move forward. And when that happens, we have to put somebody else on the case. But when you go to your entire office <laugh> and there was only three of us anyway, so <laugh>,

Bill Froehlich (00:48:42): Well, at least you had more than one in your office than it's now. Yeah, that's a great illustration and a great lesson for mediators generally. Thank you for sharing that and <laugh>, we've all failed as mediators to get to resolution in certain context. So it's okay. I'm with you. So how did you deal with fundamental disagreements over values? So perhaps religious values, maybe the indigenous community and the police department or the city have different value structures or the board of education and the indigenous community have different value structures. How did you deal with disagreements over values?

Rosa Melendez (00:49:26): First of all, I would, I would ask them what's priority number one, you know, for both of them, for whatever groups I'm working with, what's your number one priority. Eventually we would get down to something that they all agreed on as a priority and...I would build and. You know, Sandy and I were a good team, Sandy, and I knew how to work off each other and where she saw that I was kind of stalling, she could pick up. So we worked really well with each other. We could...we always worked on a team on some of these more difficult ones in the state of Washington. And I think that...was her state and I was here too. So it was easy to work off and but we would build on what...they all wanted safety for their children, they all wanted the children to have a good education. So we build off that. I mean, what can we do instead of disciplining the student or suspending them, what other things could be done? What can the community do to help the student? You know, so finding that one common interest and then building off of it, you know, and the one thing...I mean, I don't care what community you're in or what school you're in...Everybody wants their kids to be safe.

Rosa Melendez (00:51:08): And if you can get everybody to agree on that, then you, you start building off it. So you have to find that common thing that they all agree about on that's important to them and then build on it.

Bill Froehlich (00:51:23): Finding and looping back, we call those common interests in the trainings

Rosa Melendez (00:51:28): Right, right,

Bill Froehlich (00:51:28): Finding and looping back to those common interest when they have the values that are distinct from one another. Wonderful. So how did you deal with power disparities at the mediation table? Maybe one party has all the power and the other party is voiceless. How would you work through that issue?

Rosa Melendez (00:51:51): I'm trying to think of when that happened, but I can't think of one. I can't think of one Bill where there was that power imbalance. Yeah. Well, I know maybe at first after 9/11

Bill Froehlich (00:52:18): Mm-hmm

Rosa Melendez (00:52:19): <affirmative> after 9/11 many people in the Arab Muslim Sikh community felt powerless

Bill Froehlich (00:52:32): Mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rosa Melendez (00:52:32): And I think one thing that...And it was really great because I had a very, very good relationship with the FBI because prior to CRS, I was the US marshal and knew the special agents in charge. So...in Alaska, Idaho, and Oregon, I could work with all the special agents in charge of the FBI. And we decided we were going to start having training sessions with the Arab Muslim Sikh community about what their rights were and what they should do. The Muslim community in Seattle decided that they were going to have like a fun day where they invited their...the people from their church or their mosque to meet law enforcement and CRS community members. And, so we, we did training on that, that they could call us. We also helped and letting them know that there was grant funding that they could do like...one of the women in Seattle did the Arab Muslim...what is it called?

Rosa Melendez (00:53:54): Arab Muslim. It was a hotline for women from the Muslim Arab community that were being...were in a domestic violence situation, seek assistance from members in the Arab Muslim community. What else did we do? I mean and it still happens. I know the Iman in Northgate Seattle still has their day of...it's a mosque barbecue, and everybody in the neighborhood is invited. The police department's invited, CRS is invited, fire departments invited because many of their mosques were burned. So it was...they were receptive. It gave them the opportunity to throw a banquet or a, you know, a big barbecue out of their mosque and invite the public. And develop partnerships and friendships. And, neighbors of the Mosque started to feel like, well, we know these people now we're gonna protect their property. You know, if we see something suspicious. Fire department knowing, you know, okay, this is our area of responsibility, you know, getting to know them. So I think that that happened, but that was between the FBI agent and CRS. So, and FBI, you know, took a very strong lead and they had more money than we did to fund some of these things. So I think that was one where they didn't feel that they didn't have power it's that they felt that everybody was against them. Mm-hmm <affirmative> after 9/11.

Bill Froehlich (00:55:56): Yeah. Yeah. Important illustration. There are a lot of efforts that CRS undertook after 9/11. So that you're highlighting a number of ways supported those communities. So at the mediation table, when there was tension, perhaps someone was yelling, someone was threatening violence, throwing a chair. I don't know. You could imagine all those things happening at the mediation table. I imagine. How did you diminish tension?

Rosa Melendez (00:56:28): Okay. Remember my rules of conduct? <Laugh> Yep. I would start off every meeting with my rules of conduct. Yep. With this is acceptable. This is not acceptable. And I would just, sometimes I would just cease the meeting. If you're not gonna be respectful to me, I can't go on any further. You know, and sometimes the other people at the table would tell that person to shut up and let's go forward or ask them not to come anymore.

Bill Froehlich (00:57:06): People on the people on the same side of the table, so police asking police, organizer asking organizers mm-hmm <affirmative>.

Rosa Melendez (00:57:14): But I mean, I started every single dialogue. I mean, whatever...like, if we were having a town hall meeting, I would start it with rules of conduct. This is what I expect from everybody. We're not, you know, we're not gonna get anywhere with a lot of yelling and stuff. I talk about...It's a very emotional situation for everybody this room and let's be courteous. And so my rules of conduct...that's why I can't believe, I don't can't remember it 'cause I did it for so many years and started every meeting with it. Every meeting, every dialogue <laugh>

Bill Froehlich (00:57:57): That's okay. You're retired. That's the beauty. You're allowed to forget those things. That's why I'm asking you. So I'm gonna just quickly go through my, my list, make sure I don't have any, um, questions

Rosa Melendez (00:58:14): And I'm gonna see if I have my rules of conduct someplace. I still have a CRS file.

Bill Froehlich (00:58:26): I'm just double checking. So I know we were on the schedule for two hours today, but I just have a couple last questions for you...two more kind of generic questions. One is there anything that I should have asked you that I haven't asked?

Rosa Melendez (00:58:46): Hmm.

Bill Froehlich (00:58:47): I know now you gotta think back seven months <laugh> as I had to do this morning preparing for this interview. That's okay. But really Rosa if there's anything else you wanna say, you know, the floor is yours. I'd be delighted. Yeah.

Bill Froehlich (00:59:02): Hear it or something that stood out as you were thinking about.

Rosa Melendez (00:59:04): Well the only thing I wanna say is, and I said this at the beginning, I said it during, and I've said it after...My mother was like a community organizer while I was going up. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And I can remember saying that when I grow up, I'm never gonna do this to my kids. Take them to...dragging them to meeting well, and my kids will tell you, they went to many, many meetings. And I think that I was born or raised to be a CRS employee. It was in my DNA. It was in my bloodstream. I had a lifetime of education for it. I remember as a young person seeing things not go well and where they resulted into. I've seen police departments make many, many changes. And I think it's really sad since the George Floyd incident, because I think it has frightened some police departments on like, well, why did we do all this stuff?

Rosa Melendez (01:00:35): Why did we do all this training to put us back here? I know that like in Seattle police department they lost a lot of morale and they've lost a lot of officers. I know in law enforcement in general has...lost a lot of officers. But I feel like I've, lived a life of fulfillment. I worked as a police officer on the streets, so I know what law enforcement goes through. I worked as a law enforcement executive. I worked as, even though I was regional director, we don't have this luxury of being a regional director. We had to work from the ground up. So I just felt that my life was completed. And I was meant to go into CRS. That was my destiny.

Bill Froehlich (01:01:34): And CRS was lucky to have you, you did so many amazing things.

Rosa Melendez (01:01:38): And I think I can go into any community...I honestly believe this and maybe I've got grander thoughts of myself than the reality...I honestly believe I can go into any community and help them move forward. You know, I think the best thing that a CRS employee in the field can have is learn to listen. You have to listen to what people are saying or not saying you have to fill their emotions. So well, thanks for sharing. That's that's the only thing I could think of. I just felt that I was destined to do this, you know, growing up in the barrios in Salt Lake <laugh>, you know, going into law enforcement and then coming out on the other side. Yeah.

Bill Froehlich (01:02:35): Well, just an incredible story, Rosa. It's been a pleasure getting to know you in these, you know, five, six hours we've spent together and I really appreciate your time in this project, and your thoughtfulness and all that you've done for so many people.