Home | Overview | Phase I | Phase II
|
Grande Lum was Director of the Community Relations Service from 2012-2016. He is also co-author with Bertram Levine of America's Peacemakers: The Community Relations Service and Civil Rights.
There are 4 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and The Summary. This is Part 1.
Play YouTube Video
https://youtu.be/2a2yZ6AUca0
Heidi Burgess (00:00:02): Hi, this is Heidi Burgess. I'm with Beyond Intractability. And I'm talking today with Grande Lum who is a former director of the Community Relations Service, and also has a lot of other experiences that we're going to be talking about. And I want to quickly tout this book, which is a book that Grande is a co-author on. This was originally written by CRS conciliator and I think he was...
Grande Lum (00:00:41): Associate director
Heidi Burgess (00:00:42): Associate director, that's what I was looking for
Grande Lum (00:00:44): And he played many different roles. He was actually never a conciliator, but he did. He was always a headquarters person and he did all sorts of roles, nearly, you know, many of the headquarters roles for CRS.
Heidi Burgess (00:00:54): Great. Well, Bertram Levine wrote the first version of this book and then he passed away and Grande quite rightly I think, realized that it would be really beneficial to update it with some of the more current cases which he did. And this was published what? A couple years ago? Grande?
Grande Lum (00:01:16): Yes, it was published in 2020.
Heidi Burgess (00:01:19): Okay, great. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and it's a fascinating read. I highly recommend it. My friend, Carrie Menkel-Meadow said, and the introduction that it's essential reading for anybody, anybody who wants to do mediation, I would completely agree. So get that book. But in the meantime, I want to get as much of Grande's wisdom as we can, because he clearly has an enormous wealth of it. So let's start Grande by talking about your career overview and what you did before CRS
Grande Lum (00:01:53): Mm-hmm <affirmative> ...I'm happy to do that. And I think I'd start with the idea that, you know, I went to law school with the idea of becoming a civil rights attorney, so that was always an interest of mine. My thought was the way that you made a difference in the world was as a lawyer, as a person who fought for rights as an advocate. And that was, you know, my sense of it, which came back, you know, came from a background of initially I went to schools in San Francisco, Chinatown, and...when I went to high school, was when I first encountered racism toward myself and others based on race. And it made me aware of things in a certain way and led me to consider a career in making change...in a civil rights fashion.
Grande Lum (00:02:58): …So that's how, that's how it started when I was in law school. In my first year, I took the course in negotiation from Roger Fisher and Bruce Patton. And I thought the class was going to be about how to beat up the other side in negotiation, how to get your way and honestly, how to be a good advocate then, right? How to advocate for something that you thought was important to do, whether it was what we would call racial justice today, or social justice. And I was initially taken aback...these professors said, you know, instead of the way most professors say, well, call, you know, Roger would say, call me Roger. And Bruce would say, call me Bruce. And, instead of the Socratic method of calling on people and reciting facts, they used flip charts and they brainstormed, and they did all this and that negotiation could, should be collaborative that...you were a better negotiator if you were able to understand shared interests and create mutual options.
Grande Lum (00:04:03): And...so I did find it fascinating. I enjoyed the class and I don't think I thought too much more of it until my third year of law school. And we, there's something called a winter session. We take just one class for four straight weeks, and I was a little bit burnt out. And I, and the, there was the option that if you were a teaching fellow for the negotiation class, you could make a decent amount of money and not have to take a class. Not have to take a final. So I did that and it that's what really changed...my whole career trajectory. I really enjoyed facilitate...I and a co-teaching fellow had a group of 24. So we would run the small groups. There would be a plenary. And it was, Roger and Bruce was also Frank Sanders.
Grande Lum (00:05:03): It was also Bob Mnookin, who was a visiting professor at that time. He was still a professor at Stanford, and this was when there was the Iraq crisis. And, so they would be talking about these things. And...I really found my own voice. I was facilitating people in the group, some many who were older me, some very accomplished, there were military people, people who had been executives. And I enjoyed the idea that you could bring voices together in that way. And in that class, we also had several people from the African National Congress in South Africa. The Harvard negotiation project was training both people from the, then all white South African government and folks from the African National Congress in this negotiation approach to help them create a new constitution ending apartheid.
Grande Lum (00:06:01): And that was really inspiring, like, wow, you know, these tools could be used to affect real change in a country and ending a racist structure. And that inspired me. And, Doug Stone who wrote the book, Difficult Conversations, saw me facilitating a group and said, "oh, this guy's pretty good...they should consider hiring him to do this work." And that led me to then interview and join the company conflict management, Inc. That was started by Roger and Bruce, Howard Raiffa was also involved, in it not as deeply here and that, and that really led me down this path of teaching negotiation of mediating disputes of facilitating dialogues there. So I do that for several years. I enjoy it tremendously work with all over the world, work with corporations, diplomats start to do a lot of work with school districts, a lot of in collective bargaining, sometimes dealing with shared decision making in schools like in the Boston public schools, training training mediators, peer mediators for grievance procedures.
Grande Lum (00:07:23): If, for example, if a teacher files a grievance against a principal, and we actually reduced the number of grievances dramatically, saving them millions of dollars. So, and they had a model where it was a, a teacher, a union member, and an administrator has a joint mediation team who would then in a certain step within the grievances, mediate that. So I just saw the power, even as a young person in the field doing that did a lot of collective bargaining, when school districts worked, the San Diego schools, district, Minneapolis, Boston and, and did all that and really enjoyed that work, did more of that kind of work. At a certain point I was on the road a lot. I remember being in San Diego and...I lived in San Francisco at that time and was flying to San Diego every week for four months to do their collective bargaining.
Grande Lum (00:08:21): My child was born during that. My first child was born during that time. And it made me realize like, I've gotta do something different to be at home more...And that led to a something I did for a while. I started my own company, Accordence and still focused on negotiation, still focused on helping people collaborate, but a model that...where we work mostly with corporations, where we then provided two day trainings to them. I ran the business more. And I wrote a book. My first book, the negotiation field book created one of the early internet based trainings where they could, they could do a training on it and outsourced a lot of it. I hired folks who are my, were my colleagues who could go teach the courses...worked with company to companies to sell the trainings, as well.
Grande Lum (00:09:28): So it allowed me to stay home a little, to not have to travel as much. And that was good. It was great actually to run your own company and to do that, it also gave me the freedom to explore becoming an academic as well. So I started adjuncting and teaching negotiation in the bay area at Dominican College, and then at Hastings which led to me to join Hastings time as a clinical professor of law and their director for their dispute resolution and, and Hastings at the time had one of the largest programs in the country. And for law schools taught a lot of students. I had, we had like more than 20 adjuncts teaching different classes in negotiation. And I really tremendously and...enjoyed that...working with law students, working in the bay area, which is a very strong dispute resolution community and wonderful practitioners, who are...are there.
Grande Lum (00:10:31): So I was very privileged to do that for a couple years. It...What then happened was I then had the opportunity to join the Obama administration. At that point I had worked his campaign was...a candidacy of someone who I strongly believed in and thought was important for the country to do so I was very active ... the campaign. He was the person that I had gone to law school with. And so, but I didn't, it was more important. I just really believed ... in what he was doing and what the campaign was about in a positive direction for the country, uh, when he won, uh, there was an opportunity. I had not, at that point, I'm very much a San Francisco bay area person.
Grande Lum (00:11:27): But I felt like this was a moment where joining a historic administration and using the opportunity to make a difference to, for society seemed to make a lot of sense. And, and at that point, I started to think, well, what would I wanna do here? And the first thing that came to mind was the Community Relations Service. It, in the, when I was at Conflict Management, Inc in the mid 1990s, a couple of my colleagues, did training for CRS. So that was when I first became aware of the Community Relations Service. And I go, wow, that, that's pretty interesting. And, and when I looked at the administration for what I might do, I looked at a different, I was mostly interested in doing something around dispute resolution and mediation. And I did look at a couple of others, uh, the federal mediation and conciliation service for example, because I had some labor management background as well, but CRS because of my interest and passion for civil rights just seemed like the ... place that I would want to most go to.
Grande Lum (00:12:46): So I looked into it and the thing was, there was a direct, the directors are in a four year term and the director was in place wasn't leaving <laugh>. So even though he was, he was appointed by a Republican president, he stayed on during the Obama administration there, uh, so, uh, from there, so I spent a bit of time. They offered me a position at the small business administration, the administration there running the hub zone, the historically underutilized business zone program, which is a federal contracting program for underutilized areas for, so for poor rural areas, poor urban areas, Native American reservations, closing military bases, those were all those get a preference, a federal government contracting preference. I very, I very much enjoyed the work. I enjoyed the idea of how, how to help small businesses succeed, especially ones that were in ... difficult areas.
Grande Lum (00:14:05): So that, that was ... really, I think, tremendous there, um, and at the point at which the previous, the previous director, his name was Andre Harris decided to then leave the administration. I then applied for the director of CRS. I had, I met with a previous director Rose Ochi, a conciliator regional director, Ron Wakabayashi to learn more just so I could understand more about CRS and at some point, and that I learned about the book by Bertram Levine and I and even though I know some, I knew something about CRS, I was actually then really blown away to say, wow, you know, CRS was involved in the, you know, the march from Selma to Montgomery, that it was, it was the brain child of Lyndon Baines Johnson, thats Hansen had played this huge role in the Boston public schools.
Grande Lum (00:15:07): And in public school in CRS play a significant role in, in desegregation, uh, as a whole and in numerous other situations. So that it only intrigued me more, and made me think like, this is the place to be. So, I interviewed, uh, for the position and ultimately was nominated by President Obama for it. I went through the, the process that you go through to ... become a director. I get, I go to the Senate Judiciary committee and get, you know, go in front of the Senators, just like the Supreme Court Justices, same committee, same room, and go through that. And fortunately I get, uh, I make it through that and I get ... confirmed by voice vote, which is me basically a unanimous vote. And I begin in 2012, so I'll stop there for ... now, but that's the trajectory that gets me towards, to CRS.
Heidi Burgess (00:16:14): All right. That's great. And on, towards the end, we wanna find out what happened after CRS, but we'll stop where we are now. So what goals did you have coming into CRS? What were you hoping to accomplish?
Grande Lum (00:16:33): I think that's a terrific question. I certainly wanted to honor those who did the work. And for so many years, I want to listen and learn what I could. I mean, even though I'd spent my career in dispute resolution, I really, I think it's important to really understand what the folks who've been doing it as their career ... to learn from them, to learn from the regional directors and the conciliators as to what's going on there. I read the book again to really understand the history of CRS. I looked through the oral history, that you did, uh, that you and Guy did, in order to get ... what I would say there is. Interestingly, once I was on ... once I was at CRS for a couple years, coming back to the interviews and the book I say, I understood it much better.
Grande Lum (00:17:35): Like I understood like, oh, now I understand what they're talking about, to get, I got more context to work with. And that was important. An important piece I would put was, and I know it's one of, of the questions, but it mattered a lot because the Matthew Shepard and James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act had passed in 2009 and I start 2012, so it was relatively new. So right from 1964 to 2009, you could only focus on race and national origin post 2009. That's where it opens up where all of a sudden you can then deal with gender identity, sexual orientation, religion, and disability. So that was an important piece to focus on from my perspective, to making sure that we upheld the work and did the work well in the new jurisdictional areas for sure.
Grande Lum (00:18:36): I tried to bring my background into it by saying let's enhance our ability to train and to do professional development for the conciliators, uh, bringing in a background more of, uh, I think what CRS called, you know, at the table sort of mediations. And that was more of my background than the, the street, mediation that I think they would ... call, I think that was a big part of it as well. Also, I would say helping the agency capture what they did well to codify, to have processes that reflected reality, not processes to make it more bureaucratic, but to really help the agency be more successful by understanding what was working, how to get, how to get better. That was important as well, and certainly handling the big situations as well as we could was, was important to focus and, and also it, and who knew what was gonna happen.
Grande Lum (00:19:53): And during my time there was a lot that happened, uh, in terms of what happened on my first, my, really my first day on the job meeting with ... my whole staff, I was flying to Texas. And that day is there's a shooting at the . . . sikh gurdwara in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. So that, that was my introduction to . . . CRS. It was hanging there, but also thinking about, you know, how, how do we prevent, how ... how do we focus? Yes, we play a bandaging role, but also how do you help in terms of resiliency? How do you help communities prepare? How do you help them recover? How do you think longer term, I think was also something I thought that was important to do.
Heidi Burgess (00:20:48): Wow. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> quite a lot of stuff on your plate there. So the next question also probably is way too broad, but I know that most of our watchers won't have the answer to this, which is why I wanted to ask it. What were your responsibilities as director? What, what was your, what did your days look like?
Grande Lum (00:21:11): Yeah, it was often different, which was, you know, I think makes, makes it always sort of interesting and often, sometimes very exciting and sometimes very surprising, but you're the director, right? You're an, I was a director. I was an administrator here. So it's making sure in my mind making it as easy as possible for people to do good work. I often thought of my role in that way to help remove obstacles, to help add tools or resources, to make it easier for the conciliators to do their work. So that encompasses a lot of different activities. I think it includes recruiting the best possible folks, recruiting people with the skills that lead to individuals spending a good amount of time at CRS and having positive careers filled with development. I think that's one of the most important things you can do as a manager is bring in excellent people because those people will serve an agency, serve a community, for years and years and years. So I think that, you know, that was an important piece that I want to make sure we did certainly provide them with help provide the best training development opportunities, which means helping the managers ... in how they fostered the development of those con conciliators, it is, you know, working with all the different departments, that ... we had with our financials, you know, making sure that we advocated for an increase in budget <laugh> was always a big part of it. You are, I saw my role as a director, as an ambassador. I saw my role as, uh, an ambassador to other agencies within the Department of Justice, as an ambassador to the bosses, the associate attorney general, the deputy attorney general, and the attorney general making sure those individuals and their staffs knew the good work that CRS was doing could do, immediately and would be able to do if given the proper resources and staff and ... budgeting.
Grande Lum (00:23:55): If we were to create a project, I would put as an example here, consistent with the idea of the new hate crimes, jurisdiction that was provided, uh, we created training and a video around transgender individuals interactions with law enforcement. It was, it was the first federal video on transgender issues. And you'd have to go back in time a bit to 2012 and the, how we, how the culture thought, how the government federal government thought about transgender issues is different than it was today 10 years later. And it was a little more challenging and, and that meant being an advocate and ambassador to all the different, to all the other departments who were a little concerned that we were creating this ... video and getting approvals and getting people on getting different, uh, different departments on board with, with that ... it meant, uh, working well with law enforcement to get them on board with it.
Grande Lum (00:25:15): So we would work with different folks from the, uh, you know, IACP the International Association of Chiefs of Police. We worked with many of the LGBTQ advocacy, civil rights organizations on this. And, uh, you know, I'll always remember when we brought in a number of leaders from transgender advocacy organizations, or LGBT advocacy organizations. And many of them noted to me that was the first time they came to the Department of Justice, the main building for the specific purpose of working on transgender issues that while they had come for dealing with the general LGBTQ issues, this was the first time they had ever come to a meeting specifically on that. So it was something we were very proud of doing, that made a difference, you know, once it has the Department of Justice imprimatur on a video, then it's, it makes it easier for police departments to show it right, because this is a video created by Department of Justice created by the federal government, and to do a training, you know, within your police department around that.
Grande Lum (00:26:24): So that was an example of trying to do something that met a vision, that, that requires a lot of from a, you know, other people that were doing the work of making it happen, for sure, but I can help open the doors, make it easier, um, and push things forward as the director here. It is often, it was often working on, there are little conflicts or skirmishes in a community between it could be between a conciliator and some other Department of Justice official, or a state official, or a city official, having the director engage, could help smooth things over, help move things forward, as well, or prevent something from happening as well. It, it means, you know, uh, it it's, it was true in all in the interviews that, that you've done.
Grande Lum (00:27:22): And in the book that it's really hard when you're a small agency and it's written into the 1964 Civil Rights Act that you're supposed to act in confidentiality. You're not supposed to seek publicity and you can go to jail if you, you know, you break that confidentiality. And, you know, CRS was a very small agency on top of that. So it is, it is as the director, at least going out there and letting people know here is the impact of CRS. Here's the good work of CRS and making sure people know about that as an important and important role in a number of different environments within the Department of Justice, within the administration, within the federal government, in large communities, throughout the country, with the different stakeholders, whether it's the civil rights groups, um, the faith leaders, business leaders, law enforcement, other civic leaders that the, you would, you know, I would speak often at different venues, different panels, ... as well.
Grande Lum (00:28:27): It was important to, for example, I thought it was very important to go and speak and be, and get to know, and work with civil rights leaders, you know, both nationally .. and throughout the country, and that, and to say, here are the services we can provide. Here's how we can help when there's a difficult conflict, a different ... that's based on an identity issue here. So I think that, you know, that that was part of it as well. You know, you ... play a lot of roles as a leader of an organization. So it's similar to many organizations, right? You're, you're trying to lift a spirit to morale. You are, you're a role model for your, your organization, and you are, you are trying to help create the most positive culture you can within your organization. You wanna point them to a vision of a future. You want to help give them optimism for the agency itself in challenging, in challenging times ... as well.
Heidi Burgess (00:29:31): So what I'm hearing you say is that the individual conciliators shied away from publicity for statutory reasons, and probably operational reasons, too. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, mm-hmm, <affirmative> publicity can really mess up a process, and you kind of stepped in for them and tried to cover that aspect of their work so that they didn't need to is that.
Grande Lum (00:30:00): I think that's fair to say. I mean they're, these are career employees doing their work as best as they can. And, and it's important, I think, to share the impact of that, of that work. It's important to, also, make sure that communities understand there is a benefit, what is the benefit of having a third party, like a CRS come and make a difference, you know, in the, behind the scenes kind of ... way. So I think that's right. I think a director is the person, uh, who really does play the role of lifting up the services, the successes in whatever way they can without violating, uh, any confidentiality in a . . . variety of venues, right whether within the media, uh, whether in ... large venues, whether with professional associations or large stakeholder groups, you've gotta be able to make, make people aware, uh, or also how they're gonna use the service if they don't. If they don't, if they don't know about it, if they don't hear good things about it, or where the cutting edge issues, uh, in involved, uh, involved in a situation, uh, for sure. So I think that's right, Heidi. Yeah.
Heidi Burgess (00:31:22): Let me jump ahead to a question that comes later, but it relates to this conversation. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, and that's the one of, how do you measure success? You talked in the book about the fact that it's hard to measure things that don't happen. So if CRS prevented, uh, riot or violence, how do you prove that? And I know that's a big part of getting funding for the agency is you have to be able to prove success, but it's a very slippery concept. How did you deal with that?
Grande Lum (00:31:57): Um, when I, in several ways, I would say, you know, within the agency, we did have to share, uh, outcomes, right? And so what's measurable, what's concrete, I think is something to share right. Here are the number of trainings we did. Here are the number of mediations that we accomplished here. The number of facilitated dialogues here are the communities that we work with. We did, uh, and we did create an annual report every year that shared here's what we did. We would often to protect our, the confidentiality. We might not share who the exact client was, and we wouldn't, excuse me, you know, share what community it was but we would say here's what was accomplished and not, and share sharing enough details to understand a situation, whether it was a ... an interaction, uh, a use of force issue involving a, an, you know, an African American community and the police.
Grande Lum (00:33:06): Uh, we would be able to share this has happened at a, in a school district. And there was a, an incident, you know, you would you'd share enough facts that you could understand what was going on in that case. And what was the intervention and what, what was, what was the result there? So I think there are a number of things that you can share, uh, that we tried to capture for the record in an annual report every year as well, and in, and in the reporting that we did, we did, we then also during my time, we implemented as such, an evaluation, like we would actually then provide to the users of the service. How did you evaluate it? You know, what ... how effective was it, uh, in that situation? So I think that those are all ways of measuring it.
Grande Lum (00:33:54): When we, whether I was speaking to budget people or whether, um, whether I'm trying to show somebody, uh, a, a congressional member and saying here's how we've been effective. Uh, I think the, the kind of case studies and stories that, that were captured in the oral history project were captured in the Bertram Levine's original book helps. Right. I, you know, I remember reading about Nancy Ferrell in a situation where something could have break broken out, but for the fact that an individual from a civil rights organization stepped in and said something here, To me, it's, you know, I have legal training it's sort of, you walk through the case, you walk through the evidence, it, it is very difficult Heidi, as you say, when you're trying to show something did not happen because of your actions.
Grande Lum (00:34:56): And to me, that's where a narrative qualitative case study makes the difference. And, and that's how you say, here's my evidence for why CRSs intervention prevented something bad from happening alluding or crime, or, or, you know, further issues. Um, and, you know, in during the time that, that I was at CRS, which I, then, which led me to actually then it to write the second edition, to write about both experiences that happened under my watch or while I was director at CRS but other situations that had happened in the previous 25 years, which weren't yet captured because, um, basically, uh, Bertram captured up the only the first 25 years of CRS from like 1964 to 1989, approximately, where he covers things. And that's where I think, um, you, you can demonstrate. And I, we don't have to talk, I won't have to, I could talk about later, but when you look at the work we did in Sanford, Florida, uh, after the shooting of Trayvon Martin, I would, I think there's a very compelling case that CRSs involvement made a huge difference in how that, how that transpires over time, many positive things.
Grande Lum (00:36:22): There's a lot of there's freedom of speech. There's lots of protests, how the community leaders, how the mayor Jeff Triplett handles it, how city manager, Norton Bonaparte, how, um, the then Reverend Valerie, Valerie Houston, Jeffrey crawl handle it in partnership with Thomas Battles and Mildred Duprey de Robles to, uh, CRS conciliators makes a huge impact ... in what we wanna see, uh, that, that leads someone like Al Sharpton and say, you know, they, how well it was handled, you know, the protest and how much was achieved for the community and for the country.
Heidi Burgess (00:37:03): Great. Um, I had something that I was gonna ask, oh, now I know what it was, kind of went through. Yeah. Um, you said you did evaluations, uh, where you asked the, I would call them clients. I'm not sure what debut would use for the people that you're working with. Yeah. Um, how it went from their point of view. Did you do that immediately upon your departure or was it later? And one of the things I'm wondering about is do you ever go back like a year or two later to find out the one way to see whether something's prevented that I could imagine would be, if a community had a lot of uprisings until CRS came in and you did your intervention, and then things over a period of years really seemed to calm down that would be circumstantial, but still evidence that CRS had a pretty good impact.
Grande Lum (00:38:01): Yeah. I, you know, and when we, so it takes a while to both create a system evaluation, get it approved and then, and then do it. So it took a couple years, but we were able to implement a system where they would fill out like a postcard and then, and then send in on the, the benefits of that. And the, the evidence was pretty good. I mean, it was a very, we got very positive, reviews for much of our services. Again, it was a limited amount of time, a limited amount of data that I saw while I was still a director. My understanding at least is since I've left that ... worked, that worked well and that they, they were getting that. I mean, again, there are always the challenges of how many people fill out the evaluation forms and take the time, uh, time to ... doing that.
Grande Lum (00:38:57): Um, in the end reports, we would, we would write up examples, examples, like the one you're talking about where you said, okay, uh, there are all these protests, uh, and after CRS does it does its work that then here are all the positive things that, that happen, uh, in, you know, in that regard, I think, you know, I would say, Sanford was, was one where, where I think we could point point to and say, the relationships, the long term relationships between the community and its leaders was very positive. And that doesn't happen in as you know, in communities where, where the, uh, the ... mayor, the next, the ... police chief, the city manager, there are sadly, uh, mayor Triplett passed away a couple of years ago, the ... mayor of Sanford Florida, but many of the other folks are still in place and have very positive relationships with the community, and many programs to the benefit, right.
Grande Lum (00:40:10): Dealing with some of the underlying issues of poverty and ... education and youth job opportunities get dealt with. I mean, really, that's what it ultimately is about in many of these situations that those, you gotta get the underlying problems, uh, not just the, what bubbles up and becomes a ... the incident that we read about, or see in, in, on television or our phones these days. And I think that's, you know, that's a good call. I, I would, you know, I would also say, you know, it's working in partnership, you know, again, uh, in these situations, uh, and, and the sustainability comes from people, who, you know, once we leave are still doing the important work, that's what, that's what ultimately will make the difference with these communities.
Heidi Burgess (00:40:59): So that's one of the questions that we've got later on this sheet is whether you're going for short-term outcomes or long-term outcomes. And I'm hearing the answer clearly as long-term outcomes.
Grande Lum (00:41:10): It, it is, but it's, it's a challenge when you don't have, uh, a lot of staff. We weren't, you know, we were not that large during my time. I certainly, I think I was the first in a bit of time to actually get a budget increase, uh, during, during my four year, uh, nearly four year tenure, unfortunately, right after that is when, when the Trump administration and CRS gets hollowed out where more than half the employees leave. But even in when I was director, I mean, you would have, um, in say you would have, uh, in a region you would of four or five states, you would've three people or something wow. Like that. So there's a tension. The ability to do long term work is hard because you have all these other places that you're supposed to be working at, there's a limited travel budget, um, that ... you have.
Grande Lum (00:42:15): So there is, I think everyone would prefer to do sort of longer term impact work that's that was always possible ... for different variables. Uh, so sometimes it is, it is like, well, we can do a facilitated dialogue. I think I remember an example, in Iowa, uh, where Derek Deans, one of the conciliators was working at, and it was a, you know, it was a massive amount of kids, embroiled in a conflict amongst themselves and their families and you uh, Derek was in the, the Kansas city office. Couldn't just go to Iowa every week for six months or anything like that. It's not realistic. Um, but by working with another facilitator, who's locally and then turning it over to them. Uh, that's where I think we were able to then get more longer term sort of change, but it there's a, it's a real challenge.
Grande Lum (00:43:22): I don't, I don't, I think they ... when they can, they will, I mean, we had a couple of conciliators, uh, like Rita Valenciano, and Derek Deans, who were basically in Ferguson for about a year who, uh, after Michael Brown. So it was certainly, and is that long term, or, but that's certainly a huge commitment of resources to one city and asking people to stay away from their homes, uh, you know, for a large portion of that time, you can't easily do either. Uh, right. Uh, so when we could, I think, and when we were able to, we did, but that was always a challenge.
Heidi Burgess (00:44:02): I was actually thinking of something a little bit different that might be easier, which is, it strikes me that you can have a goal to go in and do a process to calm down a particular situation and call that the end and then leave. Or you can train people and establish relationships so that they can carry on CRS's work, even though you aren't there. Mm-hmm. And I know in the interviews that we did 20 years ago, there was a lot of that. And that was when CRS from my impression was a lot bigger. Um, mm-hmm, <affirmative>, it was certainly bigger than three people per region. It's my understanding. There's fewer regions now.
Grande Lum (00:44:48): Yeah. There's even, and there's even less regions today. We've, we've collapsed them, uh, uh, a bit my understanding, again, I'm not as close to it as I, as I once was, but that's what I, my understanding is, is too. And I think that's that same approach is still there in terms of what can you leave them with? Uh, what trainees can you provide that they can go on? And ... do that, uh, what are local resources that they can utilize that is still very much, I think the modus operandi of many of the conciliators because they want to, right. That's ... where they get, uh, a sense of a sense of appreciation. Uh, you know, when I can think of a situation where, uh, where a conciliator, uh, you know, Kit Chalberg does some work at a university and if you can mediate a process that where the agreement includes, here's how they're gonna work with each other.
Grande Lum (00:45:57): And here's different processes that they're going, going to have, uh, that, that leaves something, right. That's something that a, a, a framework that they can work from that will, will last and be sustainable too. So agreed that, uh, that's, you know, that's ... that those certainly, I think those sort of values, uh, that were there it's, uh, sometimes it's connecting resource that they didn't know was there, um, whether it's a federal resource, a state resource, a local resource that helps, right. Those days, we used to call that what were your Rolodex? And, you know, now would be your LinkedIn uh, for folks, but that's an important way to do it too, right. Similar to what a social worker might do. Well, you know, but with the community is a CRS person who works that region just gets to know all the different resources, that are there from FEMA, from SBA, uh, from the local civil rights, uh, association, the, the local mediation center community mediation center, who's a good facilitator, or who's a good trainer, and connecting them. And that is also I think, a way of trying to focus on the long, longer term, uh, as well, and deal of underlying issues, right. Of poverty, of lack of jobs, of lack of education, uh ... as well. So I think that's the power too, right? Uh, of, of having experienced these types of situations over a number of years that you then can, you can then provide solutions or places where they can get support, that they may not have known, or may not have connected to as, as well,
Heidi Burgess (00:47:46): Which is another reason why having people stay on long term instead of having lots of turnover really makes you more effective.
Grande Lum (00:47:55): I think so. And I, and I, I think it's a strong argument for having offices in the regions themselves. I, I am encouraged by the fact that now, uh, given the pandemic, uh, people have been working remotely, that was never possible, uh, when I was director and not in its previous history as well, but now, uh, there are many jobs that they're posting today, uh, that are remote, you know, locations in cities, in different cities. I think that could work really well for people to have out there, because there have been some talk of let's have everybody in DC and send them out there. But I, I think that would've, that you you're missing a lot there. Yeah. You're, you're, you would be missing so much of what has made CRS valuable to these, to these communities. Um, and I think that's right, you know, many of those terrific, uh conciliators and regional directors, um, you know, whether it was, you know, Ron Wakabayashi or Rosa Melendez, uh, or, or Miguel Hernandez or, or, or Diane Snyder, you know, they, they were connected and they, and they knew the communities, um, and they were trusted.
Grande Lum (00:49:13): I think that's important that it's not often, and I know one of your questions goes to that as well, but I think that matters in, in high conflict situations. I like Amanda Ripley's new book. I know you've if you've, if you've seen read high conflict yet,
Heidi Burgess (00:49:31): Um, I it's on my shelf and <laugh>, it's on my list.
Grande Lum (00:49:36): <laugh> yeah. But I think it be a good point. I mean, it makes it, you know, she takes a journalist perspective on it, and I think it's not ... a conflict resolution, you know, from the inside perspective, which I think is, uh, it's, it's, it provides a fresh perspective. Um, but in those situations, right, it's having someone you can trust, um, by parties who are, or individuals who are traditional adversaries, I think makes a huge difference. Um, uh, here that, that they trust a, a, you know, a Tommy Battles, uh, here, I think they, you, you become a, a trusted convener, right? You're the, if you bringing together people, the fact that a CRS person who's trusted by law enforcement, government officials, civil rights groups, um, they play an important glue role, uh, in, in these situations. And I, and it comes from being local and it comes from, it comes from playing a role where you're not the adversary you're you role is not that you're, you're a third party role.
Grande Lum (00:50:45): And I think that's, you know, um, it's in a really important thing, you know, Bernie Meyer has spoken, you know, written about at Bill Ury uh, is a, you know, big, third cider, uh, approach to it as well. And I think there's something about that and the way that CRS conciliators have enacted that is different from your traditional, um, you know, litigation mediator, where it's a much broader role. And I think that has served our, our communities really well, and I think will continue. And I have optimism that it will, that it can be improved now with the increased budget, uh, that I hope it will be getting in the next few years.
Heidi Burgess (00:51:35): Mm-hmm <affirmative> all right. Um, so when you were there, how many regions were there?
Grande Lum (00:51:42): 10 there were 10 regions? Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Heidi Burgess (00:51:46): Uh, but only about three people per region. So only 30 people over the whole country?
Grande Lum (00:51:52): In terms of, uh, actual conciliators and regional directors that's about right. I mean, it was in that ... area, it might, it might have been a little bit more, I mean, again, the, it might have been more like, because we would have field office too, field office too, but field the field offices had had one person, right. So we had like, I wanna say five field offices. So maybe, maybe it was like 35 conciliators and regional directors. I think that would be approximately the number that were, were there. When I was, when I was director, we increased it a little bit by the time by, by the time I had left. Uh, but that's not a lot of people, I think that's absolutely right.
Heidi Burgess (00:52:34): Pretty low. I don't know how much it was 20 years before, but my image is three, four times that I would guess.
Grande Lum (00:52:44): Yeah, it was, yeah, it was at its peak in the ... in the 1970s. Um, for, for, for sure declined because it was a huge cut, uh, during the Nixon administration. And for the most part has been in a down, gone down where it went back up, uh, a bit when, when, when I was, when I was there. Uh, but yeah, unfortunately, um, you know, it ... had diminished, uh, to the credit of the people who work there. I mean, they, you know, you're covering a lot more, it does limit what you can do, especially if there are travel budget restrictions. Um, but you do the best you can, uh, for sure. I think over, I don't, you know, again, this is my sense of the last few years. Uh, you had to do it remotely. <laugh> right. You had to do it over video conference in some ways that allowed more reach, I would think, uh, again
Heidi Burgess (00:53:42): I mean, saves the travel budget.
Grande Lum (00:53:44): Yeah. It saved travel budget and you can still work in communities and everybody had to work it that way. Everybody had to work that way. Right. So, uh, you know, whether it's a jams mediator, all of a sudden, you know, everybody, all the, all the mediations for her are over zoom. Right. And so I actually think there was some benefit in some way. And, and, and from an access perspective, right, for communities, for people who don't for, for people who are working class, coming to a meeting, you know, at 6:00 PM, or trying to get to a meeting at noon doesn't is, it's not doesn't work, but if you can do it from your workplace, uh, over zoom, it actually provides access to people who folks who may not easily be able to do that people can easily afford to be at in a place, people from community. So I think there is benefit to this new tech technology in terms of access, um, access to ... marginalize or to groups that aren't don't have deep pockets here.
Heidi Burgess (00:54:40): Seems sensible. We haven't, I haven't talked to anybody. I don't know if Bill has. I think probably we won't be able to, if we're just talking to retired folk, I'd be really interested to talk to somebody who's been working during the zoom eras. I would call it mm-hmm <affirmative> to find out whether they felt there was an impact on relationship building or trust building. It seems to me like it would be harder. There are certainly the access benefits that you point out, but I think it might be, this is good, but somehow or other, it seems like it would be harder to build trust and relationships. So I'd just be really interested in talking to somebody maybe in a few years I'll be able to.
Grande Lum (00:55:25): I think it's a terrific question. I I'm, and I'm happy to try to connect folks who have maybe more recently left CRS, uh, who, uh, and who might be, who might speak to that issue. But I think that's right. There is, there is still a benefit to the being in person. Like what I, uh, when I recently had done a ... I did a recent facilitation for a group, uh, many of whom had not been in person for a couple years. Uh, and I think it actually really benefited this group. Uh, they were from across the political spectrum. They were, um, but I think it, it actually allowed them to connect in a way that they are, that we've all been hungry to do. In a time when we've been doing everything over zoom. So I think there is a benefit now coming out of the pandemic ... to doing in person facilitated sessions or mediated sessions, whatever that you can build a trust.
Grande Lum (00:56:23): It's right. It's the things that happen during the coffee breaks. It's the connections that are made, uh, over the meal. It's, it's, you know, it's, uh, it's being stuck in the snow together, you know, or whatever it is or having, I think, like in that situation, I happen to be on the, on the plane with one of the, the, the participants. And we were just talking as we were waiting for our Lyft and Uber. Right. Um, there's certain kind of connections that aren't made when you just go on zoom for the hour for your talk, and then everybody goes back to work, uh, right. You know, right afterwards. So I think that's right. I agree with that.
Heidi Burgess (00:57:00): But I mean, the access, it might, it might balance out because the access is important too, and it certainly would enable CRS to do many more things. I one of the questions I was thinking when you were talking about how small the agency was, who made the decision about what cases to take and how many resources to give to one case thereby having to tell other people, no, we can't respond. Was that a choice that you made or was that made locally?
Grande Lum (00:57:35): I think as much as possible, it's made locally by the regional director, right. In consultation with the individual conciliator. So the regional directors, I think, played a primary role there. I, I think where, and there's also a field director, right. There's a person who works directly with the regional directors. And I think that person has a say, uh, as well, right. Because they want their job is to help create consistency across, across the agency. There, I think where, where I would be more involved in the call, uh, would be when it was a high profile situation. It was, it was Freddie Gray, uh, in Baltimore for example, when I was there, that's where, uh, I likely would be more involved in ... at least my input in a decision, uh, would ... be there, or if there was need for a resource outside of the region.
Grande Lum (00:58:30): Right. If there's an expertise, if someone, uh, had expertise in working with sikh gurdwara uh, or, or, or, you know, or from, uh, from the Muslim community for other communities, sometimes there would be ways in which, um, you would like to get somebody with that expertise who might not be in that region. And some then, and those, there may be times where, where I might be involved in those sort of calls across region deployments, uh, is where I would have say, but again, as much as possible, I try to leave that to the regional directors, uh, and to the, the field director, the person in charge of the field.
Heidi Burgess (00:59:14): All right. Um, we've talked some about this already, but our next question is what were the biggest challenges you faced and how did you get beyond them? I think we sort of skied over a number of yeah. Clear challenges.
Grande Lum (00:59:32): And, and you say, are you talking about biggest challenges in terms of cases or biggest challenges as, um, in
Heidi Burgess (00:59:38): Terms of making sure that CRS was as effective as possible?
Grande Lum (00:59:45): OK. OK.
Grande Lum (00:59:55): Yeah, I would say and start with that. It was difficult given the number of staff that we had. I think it was challenging with budget. Um, I would, I would add that it was, we certainly in high profile situations, you would then deal with all the factors that go into those right media coverage of a situation. The, uh, if there was high politicization, uh, of the ... of that, if there were lots of other agencies involved, whether department of justice agencies or other agencies making sure that you were enacting it and not, and that people weren't getting in the way of each other, like department of justice, I, I just talked to somebody department of justice. Well, you know, um, and not getting in, into the, the sort of cross situations where you're, where there's confusion or misinterpretation here. I think those were, were challenges, uh, as, as well.
Grande Lum (01:01:33): We had, we had, we had such a, a big mandate, I think. Um, and yet this gets to that what we were referring to earlier, the Matthew James spur junior head trans prevention act, we were given this new mandate, but not additional funds or staffing to, to deal with it, whether that's training of the staff or hiring a new staff or budget to do a lot of things, uh, with it. I think we did our best in, in all these situations. Um, but you're limited if all of a sudden you have this new range of activities that you can be engaged in, but aren't given a lot to then do it. Right, right. Here, um, I do think it, it was a challenge when CRS wasn't as well, you know, wasn't was not in well known, uh, especially, I mean, when, when you have newer groups, uh, who were less aware of CRS and whom might have mistrust, like Black Lives Matter groups were, were new.
Grande Lum (01:02:47): Um, some of the, many of the old civil rights groups would know CRS, whether it's the NAACP or Al Sharpton's a national action network or Jesse Jackson's group, or the Urban League, but the newer groups, we, it was an introduction and we would be more ... we could, we could, like, we could possibly be more tainted with, oh, you're the federal government. We do not <laugh> we don't, we don't, we don't need you. Thank you very much. Uh, you would get some of, uh, I think that was a, that was a challenge to, in ... a changing landscape and environment, uh, as, as well,
Heidi Burgess (01:03:25): I would love to unpack each of these mm-hmm <affirmative> so let's go back to the beginning in the media. Yeah. Um, CRS tries to take a low profile role in these high profile cases. I'm sure that gets difficult. And I read in the book about cases where one case that Breitbart just spread all sorts of false rumors about what CRS was up to, how do you manage that?
Grande Lum (01:03:58): Yeah. And that, right. That was probably more in my era than in previous ones. Right. We were social media played a role in how CRS was perceived, right. Because of Breitbart and other web websites. Um, and you know, it, it, actually, some of it went on to Fox, the Fox channel where several of the host, the rush, uh, Rush Limbaugh l, well, Rush Limbaugh from radio, and, and then Sean Hannity, uh, and others on Fox would do pieces about CRS that were that had, uh, elements that were untrue ... and those would be, those were some, those are things that I don't think CRS had dealt with before. Um, no fun, first of all, to deal with it. I think a couple things, um, one was that, you know, we worked very closely with, um, the, with folks in Department of Justice and generally speaking, we did not respond, uh, generally speaking, uh, my, uh, my word to our staff was just keep doing the work.
Grande Lum (01:05:27): Right? Do the work that you, we know what we're doing is good and it's right. Just keep doing the work and not get caught on that. So this, I think there's internal morale piece of it. Um, we certainly, I certainly provided to the offices within the Department of Justice, the Attorney General office of here's what factually was the case. And here's, what's not true right here. And to share that, uh, so that, that was, we would have that there, that was important. And as long as we, as long as we could prove like that, those accusations were not true, uh, that we were we had operated in ethical ways throughout no one, you know, I think that was enough. There was certainly, uh, then there was a response, I mean, reporters would then write pieces, uh, challenging what was said, and that was, that would be, and that was fine.
Grande Lum (01:06:35): I mean, that was, that was helpful to have to have mainstream media, uh, provide, uh, provide segments that said, wait a second, CRS is doing fine. And what would happen honestly, is when look, when, when news outlets looked more deeply into it and they would talk to right, uh, police chiefs or to mayors or city managers, they would say CRS does a really wonderful job. We, we liked them. <laugh>, you know, so they are the sort of, uh, what was, we were accused of being secret agents ... of Holder and of Obama, somehow that we were fermenting protests, uh, where that was the furthest thing from, from the, the, the truth that, you know, we were trying to, we were certainly, uh, working in situations to help keep for those who were protesting to help keep them safe, to help keep, uh, to help making sure that, uh, nothing there wouldn't be violence, uh, in, in those situations there.
Grande Lum (01:07:42): So, uh, I think it was making sure that what we call upline like that within department justice, we, we knew what was the factual case in these situations, continued to do the good work, uh, and let the good work speak for itself for ... the most part. Uh, and there were, there were plenty of folks would speak on our behalf and we didn't have to ask them. They just responded and said, no ... they were, they're doing really well. They, they make a difference in our ability to work, uh, with, uh, if you're from the law enforcement side, you know, with the ... with protestors ... for example, um, yeah, I just, I, but I do remember, uh, you know, we'd have to look through it to make, say, oh, here, here's what it is. Let's, you know, let's see, let's see what there, and invariably there was very little there, uh, in, uh, in, in the cases, uh, that were, that was going, that was going on. And, and I think the, and it, you know, even though it, yeah, there was some bubbling up in social media and it did make the Fox. It didn't go beyond that because there was not much there, there wasn't anything there. And, and I think that, I think people saw it for what it was,
Heidi Burgess (01:08:54): You know, did it ever cause you trust problems or entry problems where people didn't wanna work with you because they saw this article on Fox news, the story on Fox news.
Grande Lum (01:09:06): I can't think of, I can't think of a situation where ... it did to be frank with you. I, you know, I don't know whether the polarization and the how political it has become the, you know, has affected it today. Again, it's been, it's been 10, it's been, uh, know I left in 2016. It's been six years and I don't know if it's affecting it today, but I don't recall a single situation where a community said, no, we don't want you because of what we saw on, on Fox, you know, or on or in social, in social media here. Um, I ... can't, I can't think of anything, you know, any situation again, we're talking about who's who are we talking to police? I mean, we, we're certainly talking to the, uh, civil rights groups. We're talking to faith leaders, we're talking to, uh, civic leaders. We're talking to business leaders, we're talking to political leaders, law enforcement folks. And I think we either had a good reputation with them or there would be others who would in their own circle in their own professional network would, would vouch for ... CRS.
Heidi Burgess (01:10:31): Well, that's good. Um, so the next, I wasn't writing down when you were listing the challenges. I occurred to me about halfway through that. I should have been writing them down and that's when I started, but the next one I managed to write down is you're in these high profile cases, especially there's lots of agencies there. Yeah. Um, somewhat working in concert, I would imagine somewhat working in cross purposes. I know that there's sometimes been tension between the civil rights division and CRS over what's appropriate for each to do and confusion among people you're working with about the difference between you. How did you manage that?
Grande Lum (01:11:23): I think, uh, in, in a number of these situations, right? Um, whether it was say the, the Freddie Gray case in Baltimore where he's killed while riding a police vehicle. And, uh, it's one where, what we organize would be a, a regular meeting, uh, between different departments and Department of Justice would gonna be a representative. And we would each talk through what we were doing in that situation. Uh, and, and I think that helped prevent confusion. Um, it would help prevent missteps there. So I think that was,
Heidi Burgess (01:12:17): Was this done right away before you really got involved? Or was it somewhat later? What was the point?
Grande Lum (01:12:23): It was probably at some point, right after, after, uh, a high profile incident happens. Um, sometimes we'll be right away say, okay, we know this, we let's make sure we have these groups getting together. Uh, and ... speaking with each other and in other situations it would be because it's, it depends on the level of intensity of a case, right. If it, if it starts off high, like say in Ferguson, we ... started pretty quickly. If it's more of a ... if it's more of a slow growth, like Sanford was, it might take a bit of time before, uh, we would say, oh, we, we need a task force, or we need a weekly meeting to go ... over things, uh, here. Uh, but again, like it's just good process, right?
Grande Lum (01:13:17): It's, it's just, it's good communication, uh, in, in these situations. And it certainly helps if you have the ... stronger, the relationship between individuals. I think the better it is, because these are often intense, difficult situations, uh, where, where, where, where there's a lot going, going on. I think that matters. I think it, it helps that at both levels at the career level, you know, those who are the regional directors with the local U.S. Attorney. I mean, that, that those relationships, I think, make a big difference for sure. And, you know, at the higher up level, it's good that the head of head of CRS knows well works well, the head of cops and the head of the civil rights division and, uh, and such as well. So I think those things, um, make a, a difference, uh, as, as well.
Grande Lum (01:14:12): And it's also then matters that there's good coordination within each agency that we're, that we're coordinated within, uh, the agency well, well too. One thing that matters is that are all the agencies clear as to here's who we are, here's why we are there, right? The concern and CRS has to constantly say, we're not here to investigate CRS hit. We are not here to prosecute and we are not here to arrest anyone, right. That ... message be very strong that unlike the civil rights division where, you know, we'll be here because we have, we are, we're looking for something, uh, CRS is a has to be voluntarily agreed to. So the parties don't want CRS there. They can say, we don't wanna talk to you and they're perfectly in their right to not do so. So I think, uh, it was incredibly important to continually say, here's what CRSs role is. Here's how we differ from other department of justice agencies and other federal government agencies. And that makes a difference in making sure you're in the right lane. Uh, and that, and that there isn't confusion about, about why, you know, why you're there,
Heidi Burgess (01:15:38): Were there ever pressures from other agencies to try to get you to do things that were outside your mandate pressures to get you to, um, really some of your assessment, for instance, that would then be used for prosecution.
Grande Lum (01:15:58): I think, you know, people are always asking questions and wanting information from you, and that's where it's important at every level, whether it's the conciliator level, the regional director level, uh, at the director level, uh, that when you talk to someone that you're very clear, here's what our confidentially confidentiality mandate is. And here's what we, we are not able to share with you. And I would have to go to whether it was the associate Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General, or the Attorney General's staff, and say, we can't share what, you know, what happened in that meeting. That's confidential. That's, that's what we're doing here. And I think we're extraordinarily careful about that because one, any misstep would, would cause problems. I mean, why would any, you know, someone would not trust us if they felt what they said to us in private, uh, was then shared with another arm of the Department of Justice.
Heidi Burgess (01:17:03): Right.
Grande Lum (01:17:05): For example. So, yeah, uh, it was, I think sometimes, you know, and I, you know, you would, you're trying to be helpful to your colleagues. But you're also, uh, my Department of Justice colleagues, but again, as professionalism and I think they understood that, right. They operate under their own guidelines, you know, the same is true from them. They there's all, they don't, they're not gonna share with us either. About an investigation, uh, as well that we might, I don't know, you know, they, well, we, uh, as well, so I, I think there's an understanding there, um, uh, as well, it I think what mattered more is making sure everybody, we talked with really understood that right. In communities, uh, as ... well.
Heidi Burgess (01:17:59): Okay. So the next thing I wrote down was budget, and I think you've talked about that quite a bit already, but the one question that came through my mind is, were you ever given a request to take funds that had been allocated from one region and shuffle 'em over to another region because they're dealing with a high profile case like Ferguson or Philadelphia or something, or once the budgets were set where they set, and it didn't matter what happened?
Grande Lum (01:18:32): Well, to me, problems with that, I mean, when, when we had big deployments where we required a lot of staff to do it, uh, it wasn't ever a, it, I shouldn't say what wast ever a problem, but it was never a major problem. That's what I would say. I mean, I think, I think there's an understanding, uh, by every region that when something big happens, it is an opportunity too, for CRS to show its best. And I, I didn't feel that sort of angst or concern or that it was hard financially to, to, to do that, that we would figure out a way, uh, to, to make that work, stay within, stay within budget in, in doing so I think there may have been more concerns of, Hey, this is my region. I should be able to determine what goes on here. And, and that's where it was a harder one where I said, well, it's so high profile.
Grande Lum (01:19:37): You know, I have to be engaged in this as well. So there was, I think that was the more, a little more challenging at times I say, but again, I think people understood it, but it is hard. Right. I can, I can put myself in the regional director. She was like, well, this is happening here. Shouldn't I ... have responsibility for making the calls here. However, when it's that major, I you know, I, and to be clear, I would, I, and the deputy director and others would sit with the regional director and, and usually come out with a solution that we all agreed to. You know, there'd be a consensus. I try to operate by consensus. So I wasn't try to the Bigfoot I'm not sure that's the right term where, uh, I remember that here, I mean, sometimes there would be a hard call that I would have to make, but it was, it would be rare, um, uh, here, you know, if I, we would, we would talk it through and figure it out for the most part.
Heidi Burgess (01:20:44): So that blends into, well, either the question that comes next or one that's soon, which is, um, did you ever go on the ground? I know the answer to that is yes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but in, in the context of what you were just saying, how did you decide what cases you needed to go on the ground in? And after you answer that, then I'd love to just talk through one of those cases in detail and what your role was.
Grande Lum (01:21:15): Yeah. I mean ...
Heidi Burgess (01:21:16): How did you decide in general when you wanted to go?
Grande Lum (01:21:18): Yeah, I mean, there could be, for various reasons, one could be because it's high profile and my involvement would help in decision making. Uh, as such second could be a situation where it was requested that someone said, oh, it would be useful to have the director come here because it can help unlock something. Right. So there's a third, it, it was also just interesting for me to learn more about their work, just to be there and to play some role, sometimes observing sometimes, uh, active in order to better understand the work itself ... as well. And, and it was also a way to get to know the, get to know people by working with them. Right. And the benefit of that, you know, I am, I think a bit unusual for a director. Uh, I, I did have ... a lot of conflict resolution background that was differed from the other directors, uh, here who many of them were wonderful.
Grande Lum (01:22:25): We, we certainly had, um, we certainly had a director who was, there was very few directors who, who actually had been a conciliator Gilbert Pompa was the one director who was ... who had risen through the ranks, uh, Wallace Warfield was acting director. So, and certainly he came up through the, through the ranks and was very experienced. But I did bring that and it was, and I wanted to be helped to, to leverage that, to help the agency. Uh, and, so, it came through in working in individual cases, but it also came through in how, how we thought about the work, how we, we process the work, how we thought the theory of change, uh, in, right in the agency. Uh, and, and how do we codify? How do we institutionalize? How do we, how do we develop new conciliators I, it played some, I wanted to be careful about it because I didn't want to come in thinking that I knew everything about their work, cuz I did not, you know, I, my cases, my work had been different.
Grande Lum (01:23:27): I had done more labor management, you know, work. I had done, um, more corporate work, uh, a as well. And so some of this was newer to me. I had not worked a lot with law enforcement prior to, uh, prior to CRS for ... example ... but, uh, you know, I think, but back to your original question, I enjoyed it when I had a chance to do it. Um, you know, some of it was tragic because we had some high profile cases where it ... made sense for me to be on the ground. Part of it was not just to do the work. I mean, part of it was to be on the ground to understand, and to make decisions about what to do, uh, as well. So like, yeah, it was true in Ferguson. What was true in Freddie Gray, Baltimore, that was less, more about more, it was less about my doing the work though.
Grande Lum (01:24:17): I did some, you know, I did facilitate sessions with, with Attorney General Holder. We can talk about that one. Um, but it was more to observe some of the work, get a sense of what was really happening in a situation, because there are some hard decisions to be made. It was also being able to then share back with the Attorney Generals, uh, whether it was Loretta Lynch or Eric Holder. Here's my take on a situation because I'm here, I can tell you something. Right. And, and I'm ... talking to police chiefs, mayors, and, uh, civil rights leaders and faith leaders and here's what I'm hearing. And here's what they're saying. It, it helped from that regard, uh, as well.
Heidi Burgess (01:24:55): So talk us through one case that maybe a high profile case, cuz I think that's what a lot of folks are interested in mm-hmm <affirmative> and talk about what you did and what CRS did.
Grande Lum (01:25:08): Yeah. Yeah. And I'm happy to do that. And yeah, maybe at another point I can talk about, uh, something very small or something that was more, you know, that was not with normal, you know ... what's interesting is, um, and I'm sure you've seen this in your work, Heidi, you and Guy is, uh, the lower profile. It is the less media attention, the less scrutiny, the more relaxed people are, the less in conflict they are. The more you can do good things. I mean, it's easier to change a police policy when not everyone's screaming and yelling at you and right. And you can sit down the community and you can say, okay, what's what are the interests, uh, what we do here and when you're not angry, you know, not as angry or, you know, um, you still may be angry because of historical. You should be right, uh, historical mistreatment. But if you have the space to talk it through and do it in a constructive way, you could do a lot of, there's a place where, and you know, that's, um, you know, I think CRS does a lot of that too. And I ... sometimes think we under underplay that side, but yeah, I wanna the profiles important too.
Heidi Burgess (01:26:20): But let's talk about, I'm personally interested in the high profile stuff, we're into intractable conflicts. So I'm really interested in how do you deal with these horrible messes where everybody is incredibly angry and
Grande Lum (01:26:42): For you I'll yeah,
Heidi Burgess (01:26:45): I'll talk,
Grande Lum (01:26:46): Yeah. I'll talk a little bit about Ferguson then. I think I actually wrote more about Sanfod and I think there's a great, you know, and, um, uh, and you know, there's a, there's a video on it and, uh, as well that CRS created about that, about the, the work we did with pastors. So there's really good work there, but, uh, but I very, uh, but I wanna talk a little bit more about Ferguson because that, that was certainly a high profile. It was hope <inaudible> one. So I, on, on August 9th, 2014 is when Michael Brown is shot by a police officer there. And I heard about it that day. It was a Saturday and make a decision to deploy two conciliators right away to a, a Derek Deans and Rita Valenciano. They, they drive from their office in Kenton City and, and, and drive to Ferguson, which is a several hour drive there. Um, what I remember is, you know, this is after Trayvon Martin. So, you know, it is certainly it's already surged this, these encounters have surge using have certainly surged again dramatically with George Floyd more recently. Um, and you know, we just had anniversary of the Rodney King as well, right. That, which was in the 1990s, I think we at the 30th.
Heidi Burgess (01:28:28): Yeah, I just noticed what the 30th anniversary,
Grande Lum (01:28:31): 30th anniversary, that one certainly knows a big deal then. And, and as we know, as this sort of comes up and then somehow, sometimes we don't talk about it very much and then it comes back again. But, um, what I'll still remember is, and CRS has worked on these issues throughout the whole period and whether it's high profile, whether it's low profile. Right. Um, and, and what Derek said to me, which I still remember to this day is that, uh, having done a number of these and, and he's, he recalled how he thought it would be one where he would drive down there, there would be a small candlelight vigil. And, and then you would, you would drive back <laugh>, you know ... here ... and he said it was a shock when he drove there that, that day, and when he got there, the police would not allow the two of them Rita and Derek to go into the streets into the neighborhood, because there was a lot of crime and there was there, you know, there was a lot of danger in Ferguson when they arrived.
Grande Lum (01:29:41): Uh, so he said, he said, yeah, this is gonna be different. Um, you know, and, and it was about culture where the culture was at that moment. And it is about social media changing the dynamics, of these situations, uh, as well. Rumors always, there's always rumors in these, in these type of situations. Um, and as you remember, Heidi, it, there was continued crime and looting for several days in, in Ferguson. It was, you know, it was being covered on CNN and ... Fox and ... MSNBC constantly, um, you know, on August 18th, you know, President Obama says CRS is there, right. He and ... had been there. We were the first federal agency on the ground, uh, there trying to, to be of assistance.
Heidi Burgess (01:30:44): So Obama went on the news and then said that you were there.
Grande Lum (01:30:48): Yeah, they, they did. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. President Obama announced that the Community Relations Service was on the ground and it was, and he was gonna be sending Attorney General, Eric Holder there as, as well. And the team.
Heidi Burgess (01:31:04): Did they do, if they weren't allowed to go into the community.
Grande Lum (01:31:06): They were, they were, while they weren't allowed to go in the streets. I mean, they, you know, they, during certain times they, they could, but they relied on a network, and they were I'm, I'm gonna keep, they were contacted. They, you know, they were contacted by somebody in the community, right. Because Rita and Derek had relationships with people in St. Louis and in Ferguson that mattered, right. That, that mattered that they were known entities, uh, within the, by, by many of the civil rights and community leaders there ... and also ... by local law enforcement, um, uh, as well. So, uh, they, they start talking a bit with communities to see what they, they can do, right. And, and start to do that. And they're on the phone all the time. <laugh> they were on the phone all the time, you know, day and night, uh, there, uh, as well, they were able to meet with people, you know, individually by arranging meetings in safe spots too, uh, as well, uh, Eric Holder, the Attorney General Eric Holder, um, makes a decision to go to go there.
Grande Lum (01:32:28): He, he has stated publicly that it was maybe the hardest decision he had to make, uh, while he was attorney, well, he was attorney general and you can see the danger, right? If you go down there and things don't change, you're gonna be pretty criticized for just like making it worse. Uh, there, so CRS had the deepest relationships, uh, of, of any federal agency within Ferguson. So we were asked within a short 48 hour period to arrange four meetings for the attorney general. And that's a challenge in a lot of ways, right? You have to make sure everyone in those rooms are vetted. You can't have somebody, uh, who has something in their background that's that then gets reported out. I was like, you know, who met with the attorney general? Here's a person who did all these things. So there was, there was that, um, we had to find a venue in Ferguson, so that one of the meetings was, which I would facilitate, would be with the attorney general and with local Ferguson residents. Um, we were also arranging a meeting with young young folks for ... Attorney General Holder to meet. We also arranged a meeting with a local faith leader, uh, as ... well. And, and so that was, you know, that was an incredible amount of work that I, that, that we deployed lots of the, the a, you know, lots of the, uh, CRS team to ... figuring this all out.
Heidi Burgess (01:34:23): So you ulled lots of extra people in
Grande Lum (01:34:25): For that, pulled a lot of extra people, a lot of from different regions, for sure, from headquarters, my deputy director came, my chief of staff came, uh, to do all these things. And I, you know, I, I give them all the credit. I mean, to pull something like that off within 48 hours was, uh, you know, an Herculean Amazonian lift, uh, for, for, for, uh, for, for them. So, um, we arrive there and it's, it's at a local community college. I wanna say Florissant Community College in Ferguson, uh, where we, we do the first meeting, uh, with community residents. And, and I facilitate, uh, the, the meeting with the attorney general and ... I very much remember Attorney General Holder standing in front of the local residence and saying, you know, I am the attorney general, but I'm, you know, I'm also a black man.
Grande Lum (01:35:33): And, you know, when I was young, I was stopped on the New Jersey turnpike and, and racially profiled. So I do understand from that perspective, and he also said, you know, I have a, I have a brother who's a police officer, right. He ... was able to ... speak in a very forthright way, a, an honest way. Um, and he also spoke out against violence there, right? Uh, at the, at the time, um, he met with others throughout the day. He, uh, he also, we ... had a, we had a meet with young people from ... Ferguson. Um, and he also met with, uh, met with a group at a local restaurant in Ferguson as well. He also met with, with some, with some local leaders as well. And this was, and I still remember being very anxious because up until that night for, for like 10 straight nights, there was a lot of crime.
Grande Lum (01:36:39): And there was a lot, you know, there had been fires set in the area and that night was peaceful that night there was. And so it was, you know, again, there's a, the bigger span of what happens to a community and what, what changes can one make long term, but you talk about an intractable seemingly really despairing situation, uh, with a lot of risk involved for a lot of parties. Um, certainly for CRS, we were like, oh, we, we don't do this. Well, this is not gonna, this is not gonna look at for us ... but more importantly, uh, for the attorney general and for the administration, uh, this was a high risk action and I still remember someone in the Attorney General's office said, uh, we've never tried to arrange four meetings, like within 48 hours before. And I was like, oh, you guys haven't had this.
Grande Lum (01:37:40): Like, um, and we, you know, we were so involved in it but it made a difference. I think you could tell it there that the community appreciated that the attorney general made such an effort ... to come and be there in a place that everybody, that others were avoiding and not just criticizing and blaming, but saying, we have to come together. We have to, we have to, we have to deal with the problems. We, we also have to stop this violence here, uh, as well. So, uh, that, you know, that at least for it was the, it was the, the truths. It was the, the moment of, you know, look, can we all step back, uh, here? Uh, and so there's that piece. And then there's, you know, Derek and Rita, the two conciliators remained in Ferguson for a year, uh, wow.
Grande Lum (01:38:47): For the most, uh, pretty much full time they would come home on the weekends or every other weekend in working with the community. We did a number of neighborhood meetings or, or, uh, within Ferguson to make sure because they are feeling like they're just people, outsiders coming here, you know, coming in, in and out. And, uh, and that their voices were being lost. So we worked closely with the, the actual residents of Ferguson to making sure that they were heard of that their voices were, were part of the, the dialogue. Um, there was certainly meetings where we would, uh, where the conciliators would meet with the protestors, uh, here. And that was an ever changing array of people, because there were so many groups and so many, uh, folks ... in doing that, as well, there was working with the local merchants, uh, you know, that ... were there, who were, who were very upset about their stores being broken into and damaged and, and dealing with that ... as well.
Grande Lum (01:40:09): And so that, that was work that I think it was hard work and it was, I also spent time with law enforcement, um, because they would get, you know, they met with each other to ... they met with each other to make sure they were coordinated. And the voice that I was able to play was like, how do you make sure that you treat people protestors appropriately? How do you make sure that they have the right to first amendment, right. To free speech and not be harassed and not be mistreated. Um, and I certainly met with community leaders to hear what their concerns about how they were being treated by police during the protests as well. And I was just amazed. I, I would meet, uh, I would meet in young young people who, uh, who are working hard to protest, but doing so if, if they saw officers doing things that were wrong, they, they, one of them had a, the chief on speed dial and was, and like, you're not supposed to cover up your name tag.
Grande Lum (01:41:24): And some of the police officers were ... covering up their name tags and ... she would, and, and this young African American, uh, leader was woman, uh, was very focused on making sure that law enforcement was handling themselves appropriately, uh, there as well. I mean, and I, I would certainly see good things that often weren't reported, um, on the, on the media, in terms of, of cleanups that were, were happening. Cause you know, community residents helping out ... afterward, uh, we, we provided training to protest groups so that they would, they would keep safe that they would be that they could protest and how to, how to self marshal your own, your protest groups, so that you're safe, not harmed by others ... as well while you're protesting in a way that's respectful, uh, uh, too. So there, so we certainly had, we had, we certainly did some, some work there, uh, as well. We facilitate some of the dialogues amongst officials ... to bring about, you know, more sustainable piece, uh, uh, there as well.
Heidi Burgess (01:42:39): So when there were, looting and fires, I gather and violence for 10. Did you say 10 days before?
Grande Lum (01:42:50): Yeah. 10 days. Yeah.
Heidi Burgess (01:42:52): And then Eric Holder came and there was peace that night. What happened the next night?
Grande Lum (01:43:00): It pretty much continued. I mean, that was pretty much the ... yeah, I mean, to your, to your point, it, that piece, it did sort of was the, it stopped the fire, right. It sort of was a fire break that, that allowed things to calm down. There was still lots of protests that still happened after that. But for the most part, I, I think the, the intensity and the frequency of crime had stopped, I think that's fair to say, well, mm-hmm
Heidi Burgess (01:43:27): <affirmative>. And as far as I know, it remained stopped. Has there been further ...
Grande Lum (01:43:34): I mean, there's been very, very peaceful protest, continued, you know, in Ferguson. Um, and, uh, and there was a, you know, there was certainly the civil rights department wrote an incredible report. I'm not sure if you've ever seen it about the Ferguson police department and about the shooting incident there, terrific documents of, you know, that were indicting the Ferguson police department for basically ticketing people constantly in order to make revenue, uh, right. I mean, it's, it was you're basically and jailing people if they didn't pay. So you're, you're taking advantage. You know, Ferguson is a town with a high percentage of people who are not that well off and yet. And, and the police department, which was a, you know, even though the city was a fairly high percentage black, I think like 50% the police department had like out of 50 officers, like two, I mean, it was a very low percentage.
Grande Lum (01:44:25): I mean, I have the exact numbers, um, and that the police department had a stated mission of trying to increase revenue by ticketing people. It was, it was so to the Justice Department's credit, the report really showed how dysfunctional and problematic the police department as a whole was. And I think that that's an important piece of this, the bigger issues of your keeping people in poverty, you are, you are, you know, basically putting people in jail for not paying tickets of their broken license plate holder or something, you know, whatever it, it was. So, uh, it was a, I think a really well done investigation, again, nothing to do with CRS because CRS doesn't do the investigation piece whatsoever to be clear. Um, but it, it did focus on some of the underlying problems of the police department and within that community and how, uh, and you can go into the deeper history of St. Louis and of course, and, and look at the issues of race and class that, that exists there, that keep people in poverty, uh, basically often black people in poverty in, in the, in the St. Louis in the larger St Louis, uh, area as, as well. So, um,
Heidi Burgess (01:45:43): Did that report result in policing changes in Ferguson?
Grande Lum (01:45:46): It, it did. They were under a consent decree and they had, they hired a new police chief, um, and they had, they had to do many, they had to do a number of changes, including, you know, increase hiring, uh, of minorities and changes in their policies where they can't just, you can't just have a required quota of, you know, of ticketing and, and revenue. It became a revenue generation, you know, as a revenue generation sort of device here. So absolutely there was changes made, uh, based on, on that. And on that, on that report
Heidi Burgess (01:46:20): Was CRS at all involved in discussions about those changes. It seems like there would be a role for the community to play to discuss what would changes would be made.
Grande Lum (01:46:31): Yeah. And, and sometimes in the consent decree, CRS is written in to get community engagement, get the community voices to the table, bring in mediation. And in the consent decree Ferguson, uh, there was language about utilizing the local community mediation center in order to making sure that, um, community voices were engaged in ... a consensus based or in a, in a facilitative fashion for example, in that one, and in, in other ones, CRS was not written explicitly in the consent decree for Ferguson though. So to be clear, uh, but there was language about, uh, making sure that a local mediation center would be brought in to help listen and help increase the voices coming to the table, uh, around the, around the police department.
Heidi Burgess (01:47:25): Um, and did such mediation centers exist?
Grande Lum (01:47:30): Yeah, there was a local, uh, I'm not sure if it was exactly in Ferguson, but was in the area. Okay. Uh, uh, there,
Heidi Burgess (01:47:39): So when did you decide to leave? And
Grande Lum (01:47:44): I left, uh, I left in 2000 and
Heidi Burgess (01:47:52): No, wait, wait, wait. Oh, not, not CRS. Ferguson.
Grande Lum (01:47:56): Oh, Ferguson. Um, personally, I mean, I, I left after we ... when, when the attorney general left, uh, we all left as well. We, again, we, we left, we had often had two people there, or at least, um, and we left, we, we definitely had situations where we deployed more folks. So for a period of time immediately after that, uh, when we came in 10 days afterward, I think we had, like, I, I remember correctly something like four to six people there for a bit of time. And it's slowly, we ... reduced that number certainly budget wise. It was a, it was easy to justify the attorney, you know, the attorney general wanted us to be there. Right. Um, so it was easy to justify an increase in emergency increase in the, in that situation. It, we provide trainings, we provide facilitated dialogue and ... community forum, uh, for, for folks, afterward as, as one in helping the, in, focusing on helping the community heal and restore.
Heidi Burgess (01:49:10): All right. Well, it is 10 minutes to 11. Um, and we could take 10 more minutes. I'm looking at next questions are fairly involved. Yeah.
Grande Lum (01:49:26): Uh, I'm happy to do another, I'm happy to do another conversation. I, I, you,
Heidi Burgess (01:49:31): We're hoping you probably will do two more. Yeah. I don't have a good sense with the other list of questions that we use for the conciliators. I have a pretty good sense of how long they last, and since we have different questions for you, I don't have so much of a sense. Do we have time to talk about what you were saying before would be a low profile case where you could do more? Or should we leave that till the next time?
Grande Lum (01:50:00): Um, why don't we leave it till next time? Don't we leave until next time? Okay. I'm happy. I'm happy to do that. I, and this is great. I, I enjoy, you know, Heidi talking with you about these things. It helps me think more about these issues and ... I think there's a lot of work to be done. I'm still processing a lot of this stuff, you know, um, my, myself, and, and how to, um, how to think about it, how to be helpful, you know, uh, going forward for this type of work. Um, uh,
Heidi Burgess (01:50:30): Well, I'm very excited to learn more. I'm very intrigued to find out what you're doing now, but we'll see that till later. <laugh>, um, one of the things that really excited me when you called us originally was the opportunity to look at what has changed, because my image is the world outside CRS has changed immensely since we've done the original set of interviews. And I'm really curious to find out how CRS has adapted to that. So, so I don't forget. Um, Bill asked me to ask you who else we should interview. Yeah. And we were just talking earlier about maybe getting some people who have been around in the Trump administration with challenges. Yeah.
Grande Lum (01:51:28): I, how about this? I'll, I'll email that to you and go through the list and figure out who's no, you know, who was there during the Trump administration, but has since, um, you know, moved on, uh, Suzanne, Suzanne, I don't know when she left, but she left relatively recently. Suzanne Buchanan, um, might be interesting. I think she would have a perspective on it and she left relatively recently and I can connect you with her. Uh, how are you making the determination of who to interview and who to not interview? I
Heidi Burgess (01:52:05): Have no idea.
Grande Lum (01:52:07): <laugh>
Heidi Burgess (01:52:08): Bill's department and I just follow his lead. I do know that he wanted me to interview you. Cause he said he was too close to you and he couldn't do a good job. <laugh> I don't believe that. I think he could do a fine job. Right. But I selfishly was delighted because I really wanted to interview you. So I didn't argue him at all. <laugh>
Grande Lum (01:52:33): It's actually, I do think, I agree with Bill in the sense that he and I worked with each other for a few years. So I think it's really useful to have a, you know, a fresh perspective, a new perspective in the, in the interview, uh, here. So I think it's great. I and you guys have done such, you've done such amazing work I'm I ... enjoy learning from you and how you, what questions you're asking and how you think about these things. So I, I very much enjoy speaking with you.
Heidi Burgess (01:53:01): I, I dunno if you know this, I told Pete Diane Schneider, this story yesterday that we've been writing on intractable conflict for a long time and writing that race was one intractable conflict mm-hmm <affirmative> and intractable conflicts can't be mediated. They have to be handled differently. Mm-hmm <affirmative> so then this fellow named Dick Salem came up to me and said, Hey, I'm with the CR was with the CRS. Yes. And we mediate racial conflicts all the time. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and I got really interested and excited because I wanted to find out, you know, where am I wrong? And so that's what led to the first round of interviews from which I learned tremendous amount and learned that it was really a matter of semantics. And I wasn't all that surprised at what CRS did. Yeah. They just didn't end racial conflict once and for all so that it never existed anymore. Which is what I was saying they couldn't do. And I think you're,
Grande Lum (01:54:02): Yeah. I think you're right. A certain way. Right? That you're you can't, you're not gonna mediate a resolution of deeply held values, right. We're not gonna somehow, right. That's not gonna happen. But I mean, Dick is just such a, I mean, I was one of the chapters I'm proudest of is capturing Skokie and what he did there. I really think that's an incredible example of here's a very intractable dispute, but there's many things, more discreet, concrete things that can be mediated that have to do with time, you know, time, place, manner, safety, right. He helped, I think that's, to me that's a great case study of a situation where, but for Dick and Werner Petterson, his colleague there that could easily, easily, easily ended in violence and people being shot, people being killed, people being hurt easily.
Grande Lum (01:54:56): You could totally see it. That, I mean, that to me is an argument, an evidence that I, that case I would put that chapter to say, you know, your honor, here's an example of you know, a case where, but for CRSs involvement there would've been violence. And he, you know, and Frank caught the, the, the Nazi and won his case. And, and, and to this day we have a precedent, uh, that even if you're a Nazi, you have freedom of speech. Right. And that, and I think sometimes people CRS like, oh, you're preventing that we're not preventing the guy who should still go to Supreme Court and still win his right to protest. But that doesn't mean you should do it in a way that causes great harm and injury and those can be prevented and those can be mediated out.
Heidi Burgess (01:55:46): And then one of my questions that I'm really interested in exploring is how does CRS deal with the cancel culture now that is trying to prevent people from exercising free speech.
Grande Lum (01:56:01): Yeah. And I, I think it's, you know, I'm not sure what this part recorded. <laugh>
|
|
|
Civil Rights Mediation Oral History Project Phase 2 As a public service, Beyond Intractability hosts this site in conjunction with the earlier Phase I of the Civil Rights Mediation Oral History Project. IRB statement for Phase II interviews “Research conducted pursuant to Ohio State University Office of Responsible Research Practices IRB protocol 2021E0493.” |
|
|
|
|
|
Civil Rights Mediation Oral History Project Phase 2 As a public service, Beyond Intractability hosts this site in conjunction with the earlier Phase I of the Civil Rights Mediation Oral History Project. IRB statement for Phase II interviews “Research conducted pursuant to Ohio State University Office of Responsible Research Practices IRB protocol 2021E0493.” |
|
|
