Grande Lum -- Part 4 of 4

Grande Lum is a former Director of the Community Relations Service, serving in that role from 2012-2016. He is also the Co-author with Bertram Levine of America's Peacemakers: The Community Relations Service and Civil Rights.

There are 4 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and The Summary. This is Part 4.

 

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https://youtu.be/LuxPb3pSZWk

Heidi Burgess (00:02): Ok, and we're recording and hi, this is Heidi Burgess with Beyond Intractability. And I'm talking today with Grande Lum again, this is our fourth or fifth, I'm not sure, talk. And we're going to finish up, I hope today, our discussion about his work at CRS, community relations. I've got questions left, but I don't want to take them in order because there's two particularly that strike me as the most important. And you might conceivably want to talk a lot about them. Ok (Grande). So I'm going to go with, maybe I'll do two other ones that I really want to cover, and then we'll spend as much time as we want on the last two. The two that I want to cover one is on social media and with the second, which is on fake news. And I put those two together in my head because we've seen how much a problem, social media and fake news spread through social media and traditional media. How much of a problem it is in the country, overall terms of building hatred and fear of the other. And I see this as just a key driver of racial problems. I'm wondering if you at CRS saw it the same way and what, if anything you did to tackle it?

Grande Lum (01:51): I think that's an important question. I think it's gotten even more important now than it was, when I was at CRS 10 years ago, I might take the question at two levels. One is how social media, I recently have been thinking about it as weapons of mass distraction and polarization.

Heidi Burgess (02:19): Use that line

Grande Lum (02:21): ... I think it really captures it well. So I think there's one, what is the problem or the consequence created by social media in CRS kind of work? The second piece and I think we talked about already, so I wanna make sure, I wanna cover the first one probably more. But the second one, I'm happy to go into a bit more if helpful, which is how social media played a role in actually the CRS work, when there would be misinformation shared,

Heidi Burgess (02:56): You did talk about that a little bit.

Grande Lum (02:58): Yeah. We already talked about that piece. So I don't, unless you want to talk about something specific, I'll stick to the former first.

Heidi Burgess (03:03): Let's go. Yeah. I was thinking the former when I was writing the question.

Grande Lum (03:08): Yeah, I think it just, it creates a more tribal approach even for the people involved. You are, if each side is getting this... information, that's polarizing them, you, I can see it just leaving people less likely to want to engage whatsoever.

Heidi Burgess (03:40): Right.

Grande Lum (03:41): And less likely to even want to get together in person. And this is, at least in my time it was pre pandemic. And so I think it even changes it more, the people's desire to be in person here, because it's easy to be a cyber warrior now. It's easy to think of you're accomplishing whatever your goals are by attacking the other side here. And clearly I think... there are a lot of folks who think about how social media can bring people together. I mean, from my perspective, that's what I thought the beauty was. So you can connect to people all over the world. Right, Right (Heidi). You can communicate, you can get real, you can get, I think I was being naive at a certain point, thinking that social media would help reduce misinformation and disinformation, but clearly it's gone in its entirety

Grande Lum (04:40): ...the other way. So I think that, you know, for CRS's work... I want to say one thing that's somewhat counterintuitive, is CRSs work is a lot about race. It's a lot about community. Social media has helped shine a light on police and community relations. And so there's a benefit. I think it's made certain parties more accountable in a certain way. Ok (Heidi). It makes sense (Heidi). Now, if you are a police department, if you are a political leader, if you are part of a large civic organization, social media has heightened the scrutiny, has heightened the need to do something. So I think... that's one thing that's good. I mean... Ok(Heidi) it was very true, you know, I've talked enough about.. the situations like Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and Freddie Gray, prior to that time, conciliators would talk about how so few people showed up to these protests and rallies there what's different today is that people have the cameras and people are putting it on social media and it's going viral.

Grande Lum (06:13): So I think there is some benefit, in that way. And you have a lot of communities who are very active and who care about these issues too. So there's been... a new type of activism that has arisen as well. So I think those are all good things... But then there are some things that are obviously negative... that we are becoming more tribal. We're being pushed into our own sides more. It's easy, easier to speak within your own echo chamber here. Right (heidi). And... I think that mask, the fact that there are a lot of people who actually do make a change and positive change in terms of, let's say just police, community relations, police departments who do change the use of force policies, increase the use of video cameras, and do things like that.

Grande Lum (07:18): And that does bring benefit. But that isn't what... We used to say "It bleeds, it leads" right. Right now it needs to divide to lead, right. It needs to tear people apart. So I still think there are constructive stories out there that I think social media misses because of the drive of a certain kind of narrative here. So, I'm concerned about a future in which we are increasingly divided, right? I mean, if you look at pew surveys and you look at other surveys, the way we view our partisan difference, and you do a lot of this work Heidi, is much higher. That's that to me is concerning... for example. So that, that may make it harder for people to do CRS type work here.

Grande Lum (08:28): I think that... there are going to be some challenges. I do think what's going on the world makes for a greater call for CRS work too. You need more people now to play that third party role. And so, and if people aren't as good face to face, or, and they don't have the emotional intelligence, then having a mediator, a conciliation specialist, a mediator, a facilitator may even be more important to helping people find common ground or just to listen to each other. I think in a place... where I think people are wanting to see whether you're with me or against me, the ability to listen to people is harder because we want to show we're down with the cause, no matter what side you're with... I think there is some symmetry here, you know... for that sort of conversation.

Grande Lum (09:32): So that's what I would also say for the future, you know, as we think about CRS's work here. This is, I want to pause a second. I just want to add that it's a social media question. I would also talk about the technology perspective. We're talking on zoom right now. You didn't do it that way. When you did these interviews with the first generation of CRS folks, it's the same for doing the work, I think for CRS's future, being able to use zoom, being able to use maybe the metaverse maybe in VR. I think conciliators whether it's CRS or elsewhere need to be on top of that in order to go where the, you know, Wayne Gretsky used to say, you know, you go where the puck is going, not where it is right now. And I think as a field, maybe, we need to think much more creatively about how we facilitate, how we mediate, because I don't think it's going to look the same. It's clearly not. It's clearly not. And... then you get into questions of artificial intelligence and AI, is there an AI type mediator, that we want to,

Grande Lum (10:55): We might have, who knows? But I think we need smart people in this field to think about it, to pioneer it too. If this field is going to adopt to the changes and not to be so far behind as well. So let me pause there and see what you want to take.

Heidi Burgess (11:10): Well, that's funny because you have moved into one of my two essential questions. Right (grande). The first, the first one was titled future and it reads what future do you see for CRS at this point? Is its funding and federal support secure from what you know? And is its mission staying the same or is it being redefined and where do you think it? Maybe I should read the last question, because it overlaps. If you were in charge, which the title is dreaming, if you were in charge, what changes would you make to CRS to make it stronger and or improve civil rights relationships and processes in this country. So take that wherever you want to go with it.

Grande Lum (12:05): Ok.... I'll start with the first of what... my understanding of the future is, and again, I'm not there. And so, but I have heard certain things and I'll talk about where... I might think about in terms of where it might go and where I think it might go. First is I've I've heard very good things. Paul Monteiro has been confirmed by the Senate. He is now on seat and he is now the first confirmed director since I was director a number of years ago now, you know, six, about six years. You know, I left in 2016 and we're in 2022. It's been six years since we've had a confirmed director on that... seat. So I think that's really good sign.

Heidi Burgess (12:52): Wow, Is that true? That all the other ones were in? (Heidi cuts out partially)

Grande Lum (12:59): You're breaking up a little bit. I'm not sure quite why the, your audio it's breaking up a little bit, but I think... I heard it, in the meantime, so after I left in 2016, Paul was the acting director. Paul was the acting director for a number of months after that point, there were then career like the deputy director of CRS, ostensibly played the role sometimes being called acting or just being called the deputy directors who was a career employee. Okay (Heidi). So throughout Trump never named a director to be confirmed by the Senate, so that... And you know, we're now in 2022, almost two years into the Biden administration. And it took that long to, to nominate, to go through a hearing and confirm basically. Ok (heidi). So all the signs look good.

Grande Lum (14:01): I mean, I think the Biden administration...sees the importance and the value of the community relations service. The budget has been increased and when I look on the web, I see lots of positions being posted. I saw two regional director positions posted today, one in Denver and one in Kansas City, Missouri. For the over the last couple of years, I've seen postings for folks working remotely. That was never the case in CRS's history where you could work from home and not have to go into a physical office. And they're even posting positions in cities that do not have a physical office right now. Ah, ok (Heidi). I think that's really good if you're really going to serve the communities. I think you need people from that community who then build relationships there. So I think that's a really good sign... To have folks and to be a little original in... how they focus on this, you know, the sadness, and I think I've talked about this before, is that there's been an increase in hate crimes related to identity of certainly the anti-Asian one, anti-Asian hate issues have increased exponentially in the last couple of years.

Grande Lum (15:42): And some research shows increase in hate related incidents for other groups, as well. And I think CRS has a pretty important role there, given that that's part of its jurisdiction to respond and prevent hate crimes for on a range of identity issues. So I think... you know, one thing I've thought about a bit, is CRS should both be focused on the flare up...what's happening, but... it also needs to go to the underlying causes. I think that's something that you in your interviews have, I think, have seen that tension over and over again. Yeah (Heidi)... I think it's similar to, you know, you gotta treat the heart attack, you know, the sudden traumatic incidents, but there's also some underlying issues, long term health issues, you know, cancer type issues where... you've... gotta think about prevention.

Grande Lum (16:44): You've gotta think about, you know, what will really deal with the underlying causes and not just the symptoms right here. And I... really hope that that's where the focus on, and I think what I would,...then because I don't know everything that's going on today, but I think, you know, I know there's focus on increased hiring. There's going to be a focus on training and development of the new staff. You've got to have that I think, and I think there needs to be consistency... in that regard here. So, you know, I think ideally as we go forward, I do think it's important for the agency, to really train and provide professional development, provide coaching to the conciliators. The challenge is that they are spread out, especially if they're working from home, they're going to be even more spread out around the country.

Grande Lum (17:55): And I think it's going to be important that they feel that they're getting support and that... there is a method, you know, common methodology about the work that isn't to say. It should not be cookie cutter. I think you want to be able... to welcome. It is both an art and a science. I think that's the case, but I think you need good mentoring. You need good professional development. I think you need good management. I think you need good coaching... to really make that well. And that's what, you know,... throughout its history, there's certainly been those qualities. I just would like to see it sort of more institutionalized and sort of with this incredible opportunity to rebuild CRS in a way that I think we haven't had the opportunity in the past few decades, this is an important opportunity to get that done well and to do it in a collaborative way. I do think it's,

Heidi Burgess (19:04): Let me stop you for a second. Why do you think there's more of an opportunity to rebuild better now than there has been over the last three decades?

Grande Lum (19:14): It's circumstances. I mean, partly because so many employees left CRS in the past four to six years, during the Trump administration, the number of personnel got reduced by about 50%. Wow (Heidi). So a number retired, a number move moved on. So a part of it is the fact that it's dwindled down. Here's an opportunity as you grow back to then create the agency, you want the agency of the future. Right, right (Heidi). That you're trying to create. So I do think it's important to have expertise in where the world will be, whether that expertise be in social media, the expertise in how to convene and gather people, you know, in person for, I don't think by the way, I do want to clearly state, there is a secret sauce in bringing people together in one place physically, and I would never want to lose that.

Grande Lum (20:24): And why go away from a strength? I mean, you would, you want to continually build on your strengths and leverage your strengths. So I, even though earlier I said, you need to go where the future's going... I think there's a benefit to not just in a two dimensional way, see the body language, there's a three dimensional benefit in being in the room with the people that you are in conflict with here. For sure (Heidi). And I would not want that loss in a sense I would want to double down on it. I would say, that's what makes it's going to be even more special when you do bring people together. Right (Heidi). Part... of... what's happening to all of us in our lives coming out of the pandemic is, well, I'm only going to do things that are really important in person, right.

Grande Lum (21:16): I may not travel for a conference that wasn't that interesting to me. I'll watch it on... the zoom, but for my, for example, for family and friends, I will make the point of coming together with them. I do think something like this, if there are significant conflicts that are going on, it's important to bring people together. And I think CRS has a, has a key role in doing that. And at the same time, thinking about the future... how do you leverage technology in the work and what will the work look like?... In the future it's very clear, for example, in court based mediation, they would always do in person... There's been a significant movement to doing that online now. So the benefit is there is an access issue, you know, it's hard for a working class parent to take off work.

Grande Lum (22:20): If they're not going to get paid when they do that work, it's hard to, you know, bring your kids somewhere or for younger folks. There's all that transportation time. So there is, I think technology allows for greater access... as well. And I think that that will help and people sometimes feel more comfortable, especially if they're a marginalized individual, or they're not as comfortable... in a big fancy office, that there's a benefit there as well. I do think on a separate item, I do think there is going to be a greater need...for folks... who have access, who can liaison can be in dialogue with researchers, like what are the trends that are happening and with cutting edge research on what works right to be evidence based in this work as well.

Grande Lum (23:23): And so I'd love to see more connection with, was it practitioners, people who are, you know, both... practitioners and also who have some research cred... as well. So I do think, I think pracademics is what they call it. I think there's a term I've heard pracademics is what I do think having increased subject matter expertise matters whether that's for education, for law enforcement, for community issues. There's a lot of, another sort of area is when we think of about environmental issues, about the equity issues in environmental issues and the effect on communities, especially if they're close to water and on the coast, or whether the weather impact. And we know that there's some inequity, depending on one's socioeconomic status, one's community. I do think that's a huge area and, you know, CRS conciliators have gone into places like after Katrina and after other national disasters working with minority communities... And I think thinking about it certainly from an urgent circumstance perspective, but also then from a preparation standpoint, from a prevention standpoint as well I think... is going to be key. I think there's more work to be done. You know, certainly a lot of folks talk about the intersectionality of these issues, about gender and race and religion. Our country is shifting dramatically in terms of religion, right. There are less people who are practicing, whatever the religion happens to be... How does that play out... in our conflicts as well.

Grande Lum (25:37): So, and there are continually new communities, different people who are immigrating to the United States, making sure that the hiring retention, professional development reflects whatever demographic trends are going on in the United States. And also, again, goes back to professional development of making sure that people have the expertise that will really make an impact for these communities here as well. Yeah, you know, with the increased polarization, I think you're going to have to be even more skilled in some ways as a mediator because so many people take on the mantle... and perceive themselves as being marginalized in some way. So I think it's going to take increased skill, you know, to manage these sort of conflicts. You know, some of my colleagues like, like folks like Nancy Rogers at Ohio state, think about systems, design issues, dispute systems designs, where Jen Martinez at Stanford, has also just written a wonderful book of a number of colleagues to look at our institutions, to look at our systems.

Grande Lum (27:15): And I think having the resource, or having the expertise in that will... help communities, organizations, come up with solutions... for the issues that they're like the conflicts that they're facing as well.

Heidi Burgess (27:38): Interesting. So you think it would be worthwhile getting systems designers in CRS?

Grande Lum (27:46): I think, yes. I think the benefit is it may help the groups that are in conflict, the leaders are in conflict devise better solutions. I think, it depends what your goal is, what the conflict is and what the problem is. If you have systems design expertise, and it is a systems problem, then I would think having somebody who can speak that language and understand it, would provide benefit... It's an old question of, has a... facilitator... what expertise should you bring to the table? Even, and there's often the argument that if you're a hammer, you're looking for the nail here, so ... I'd want to equip CRS with a variety of tools... in this regard, which leads me to, you know, I think where the country is going is as we deal, especially on race, but certainly true on gender, certainly true on LGBTQ issues is thinking through about restorative justice.

Grande Lum (29:06): If really understanding the harm and then creating real healing is what we need. And I think there's some truth to that then bringing that skill set to the table, bringing people who really understand restorative justice and who can help devise solutions. And this doesn't always have to be in house. Some of it can be outsourced. Some of it is just having access, easy access to experts in the field... And they can be contracted, or there could be some sort of partnership. And this could be true with other federal agencies who might bring expertise to the table as well. But it... strikes me if we, as a country need to heal from these sort of harms that making sure that you can provide the technical assistance on it, on restored justice, and of those. And I think those are the problems that will continue to reveal themselves in this country or communities will ask for that kind of help. Then CRS, I think can play an important role in helping communities heal from those sort of problems and conflicts.

Heidi Burgess (30:27): Interesting. I don't remember in any of my other interviews, anybody else about RJ, but at the same time, it strikes me that that is in essence, a lot of what CRS does. Just, haven't used that term.

Grande Lum (30:43): I think that's right, right. It is about healing... There have been, I think a couple folks who brought a restore, there clearly are folks who have brought it. But I think that may be true for the number of the folks that you interviewed... that wasn't the lens by which, or the training, the formal training that they brought in to CRS. That doesn't mean you can't do it. That doesn't mean there aren't wonderful mediators who have... helped people forgive, who have helped people identify a harm and have identified a way to make up for the harm. But there is a field called restorative justice, RJ, where people are practitioners of it. I think.. CRS should really look carefully at that. And we know it's been utilized a lot to break down the school to prison pipeline. Restorative justice has made an impact in how we treat bullying, In how we treat discipline issues in school. And there is clearly good resources that shows, because of race, certain kids, often black and Latino kids... are punished more disciplined more and that approach may not help them in terms of their growth and development.

Heidi Burgess (31:59): Interesting. Do you have anything else that you want to say in terms of CRS in the future, or should I practice other questions? I don't want to cut you off.

Grande Lum (32:14): Yeah. Let me think for a moment. Is there anything else about CRS's future?

Grande Lum (32:28): A lot of folks who used to work in CRS talked a lot about early warning systems and early alert... and regions used to put together, like... here's where we're at in terms of a level of conflict. I think something can be brought back on that. I think there's, but I think that would be an investment in terms of using data of getting a sense of what's going on in a region here. I do think that would be a significant investment and I think it's well worth it. I think if CRS is really trying to help the country around issues of conflict, let's use the latest tools, latest technology in order to get a sense of where the hot spots are, right, to be able be more predictive about it.

Grande Lum (33:35): Of course, you have to be careful, there are privacy issues. There are issues concerning that, but it strikes me that's something that I think was important in the day. And I think useful... to bring back here, you know, you know, what has always differentiated CRS is that... it's part of the federal government and it gives it a certain cache, a certain credibility when it brings people together. I do think there's a place for CRS to convene certain dialogues, right? If we're to and I'm thinking bigger here, right?... If it can help facilitate certain types of dialogue to help this country heal, why not promote it right? As a department of justice agency, why not model it... for folks to see, we need that kind of voice, in a time where it's easier to blame the other side, where it's easier... to show that, you know, you're on the side of good, rather than evil, or sort of thing.

Grande Lum (35:03): And rather than picking sides, really promoting CRS, as there is an importance to listening, there is an importance to understanding, there is an importance to being at the table with someone who disagrees with you. And I think that's what, you know, CRS is unique in the department of justice. It's sort of unique in that way, most of it's litigation investigation. So I think bringing that to the forefront at a time when the country needs it, I think would, would really contribute in the future. I mean, and I think we're right. You can be pretty pessimistic around the polarization of this country. Social media is a part of it. The partisan part there is a part of it. And... living in more of a cancel culture is a part of it. So having an agency that really does focus on listening, understanding, communication, relationship, building trust, building, I think sends an important message of what the federal government can do and... I would say, should do as well.

Heidi Burgess (36:23): Totally agree. And I can see right there why your expert is going to be valuable in your next role. So that's very interesting. So going backwards, one of the questions that I skipped you somehow you have a sense and you cover them. But it was about mentoring and the way I wrote it, I said that you've talked earlier about the fact that the people coming in to CRS now are, tend to be more trained in conflict resolution than they were back in the day, but they still need, I hear from you mentoring. Yeah (Grande). And you have just talked a little bit about how you'd like to see that done. It was part of the dreaming question, I think. Right (Grande). Going to on the ground what's happening, what advice would you have for new mediators, CRS or otherwise. How can they get institutionally implemented?

Grande Lum (37:32): Yeah. Right. And we've talked a little bit already about the fact that even with really good conflict resolution, theoretical training or background, there is still the reality of serving the community, being on the ground and talking to people from different walks of life and being able to code switch, and being able to convey things back and forth and doing that. And I think that means having a really strong, for CRS, an internal training, internal professional development. I think it means they're having access to someone who does have the experience, right. Who can share here's how to deal in this a major protest, or when there are 10,000 people potentially going there, what's going... how to deal with that. And so I do think for ,whether it's CRS or whether it's another agency who does this type of work or another nonprofit that does that work, making sure that you invest in training and professional development internally.

Grande Lum (38:52): I think makes sense. I think part of it can be external too. I think part of it can be maybe it's a university partnership. Maybe it's a group that they can work closely with, who can provide some of that training and mentoring as well. I do think, part of it for CRS is it's not just your manager, it's having access to others within the organization who provide it. And it's providing an organized institutionally backed program even, you know, I think professional development saying "Hey, here's what you're gonna do year to year, here's here's the..." And tying it to performance. Right. That's the thing that, any organization... will talk about here. So I think the benefit is that we do have folks, I think folks who have gone through CRS, a number have been gone to academia or who continue to do the work. I do think trying to leverage those who have come before, I think will make... a huge difference, as well.

Heidi Burgess (40:15): Mm-hmm <affirmative> Does CRS provide the opportunity for the new conciliators to work in parallel with old timers, so co mediating or facilitating or let off on their own? Or do you not have the staffing levels to?

Grande Lum (40:36): I think, excellent question. I think the primary person historically has been the regional director because they are in the same office. The regional director... often has been a conciliator, often has a lot of experience, so that that's important... that they have someone like that. I do think that you, especially now that we have more access based on technology, to be able to access others within the organization, then not... have it limited to the manager to the regional director here. So I do think more can be done. And historically what you identify, has some truth to it. There's this budget constraints, it costs money to fly people out, it costs money to have more than one person on a case. Right. So... if you could get more budget, I would absolutely say that folks who are newer or new to the agency should be working with other partners... for their first couple years.

Grande Lum (41:52): Even when I started in this work, I did not start with CRS. Right. So I started with the conflict management, Inc. I got to work with a lot of senior different senior people, as a junior person. It gave me some of it, you know, some folks I said, oh, that that's incredible. I'll do that. And other times I watched something say, I don't think I would drive would do that right. So, you made your own decisions, but we had a methodology. But of course, different people... can have within a methodology, can still be implementing it in different ways, maybe approaching in different ways. Yeah. And there may be a difference between the mix of facilitation, mediation, training, coaching. I mean, there are all these tools that one can have here. So I would, yeah.. I love, I appreciate that you raise that it's an investment.

Grande Lum (42:43): And if you have the budget, that's how you really develop folks is you have them work in teams. You have them work with various senior people, not just, not just one person, that isn't to say that there is a benefit to having a mentor or a partner that you really do learn a ton from, and to work with that person on a consistent basis, too, that there is some benefit to that. I think it's a both end, right? Doesn't mean that you, and so it's, I think it's really important that it becomes even more important than, rather than a sink or swim situation, that the people who... are in those positions of mentor, the more senior conciliators or regional directors is that they are measured and they are really trained to train others well, that they are trained on how to coach... that there is a department that's trying to capture best practices.

Grande Lum (43:43): That's creating a methodology for the organization as a whole. And again... I'm not trying to create a McDonald's assembly line here. I'm just saying that there's a way in which you need to capture best practices and to capture diverse ways of accomplishing the same thing. And not to say, this is the one way to do it, but here are a couple ways... here are three different models, you know, and depending on, unless we can discuss in what circumstances training makes more sense and what circumstances meditating makes more sense, or how do you from a system or a big, you know, a more of a change management perspective, how do we see the next six months with this client? Right (Heidi). What I would also say is this budget related? Is that are we rewarding the conciliators for the number of cases they're doing or are we rewarding them for the outcomes they're achieving?

Grande Lum (44:44): Because if you don't have a lot of budget and you're being rewarded for numbers, then I'm going to be more focused on, oh, let me conduct 15 mediations. And I'm not saying this happens. I'm just using this as a hypothetical for this moment. I just want to show, I did a lot of work versus do I really want to show here's what I accomplished in each situation. And you take the time as an organization to really evaluate it, right? If you... don't have a lot of budget, you don't have the staff and resource to evaluate whether something's been a success or not. Right (Heidi). In an organization with a lot of budget. And who's really focused on results. They're going to go look at the hundred cases that were accomplished and to then say, oh, we made a difference. Here's the impact that we made here.

Grande Lum (45:36): And that means not being defensive. That means being able to take feedback. And that means not being afraid that, oh... I can take criticism without it feeling like I'm being punished here. You need a level of openness. You, you need a level of we're here to improve. So yeah, I mean, this goes back to the question you asked earlier, the dream, the dream would be, you really can't spend time doing the... review. It's.. the after action reports that I think the FBI is well known for that, for example. And, when you can make it about learning, what did you learn from this? And I think CRS to the extent that it's been successful can do so, but yeah, there's a limitation in budget and staff and resource... and what the performance metrics are. That those all have, everything has to be done holistically. It can't just be one piece of it here. And some of this is not specific to CRS. This is some of what I'm saying is of course, more applicable to any high performing organization. You have to do these things. And I think when you don't have budget, it's hard to do those things.

Heidi Burgess (46:55): Right. And you also have the problem that many others in the broader field of peace building, which I'm familiar with is, the line is that things that can be counted don't count and the things that count can't be counted. So, You're trying to assess things that aren't necessarily easily measured by numbers, unless you're just measuring how many people did you contact. Right (Grande). Basic stuff like that may not really tell you you that much about whether or not lasting resolution was obtained.

Grande Lum (47:36): Right. It's an agreed on that. It's hard to measure those things, right. It's hard to measure what did not happen. It's hard to measure what conflicts did not get worse. It's hard to measure, you know, what violence did not happen, right? Those things are harder to measure. And what can you measure? Number of people, number of cases, number of trainings. Right, Right (Heidi). And I'm not, by the way, I don't have a problem with measuring those things, but it's the weight that you give to that. It is the...there is accountability. You do have to show, well, here's what I actually did. And you have to count those things and they become proxies for success. And they become what is measurable here. I would say then you've gotta spend more time, not in quantity, but focusing on quantification, but on quality, right.

Grande Lum (48:41): And by looking at the narrative, you've then got to say like a lawyer would do it, which is if I were going to court, how would I persuade that something, we prevented something from happening or something good happened because of what we did, it is spending more time unfortunately or unfortunately saying here's what the action that the CRS conciliator took. Here's what we think would've happened. Here's why we think it would've happened. And by bringing together these parties, they came to these agreements. We think that the outcome of a change in these policies happened and it prevented these things in the book. You know, I wrote about a few cases where like, wow, I think if you looked at these places, if you looked... in Florida after, and during the Elian Gonzalez case that, you know, Hey by talking to communities, here's what... it was accomplished.

Grande Lum (49:43): You know, when it's the black church burnings... here's by going out to communities by interviewing lots of folks, here's how the numbers actually did go down over a, you know, a 10 year period, for example. So, I do think, yeah, I appreciate your leading the conversation to this place of, I think these things will all help CRS in terms of improving or enhancing what, you know, the incredible work that they have done. I mean, you know, again, the book is one attempt. I think... what you and guy did the first time and what we're trying to do this time, does the same thing thing, right. You're trying to say, here's what we did. Anyone can then read it and make their own, come to their own conclusion about it. Right (Heidi). But that is important. Part of this work, peace making work, I think, peace building work is that's the way you justify or make it a bit more evidence based here.

Heidi Burgess (50:48): And what I think is nice between your book and our interviews, CRS is probably, at this point, it's work is probably better documented than a lot of piece-building organizations. I think there's a lot more information out there and I know researchers sometimes argue over it. . . . ]inaudible] . . . . The only question that we haven't now covered is kind of ironic one for you it's written for other people, which is, have you written anything that would be useful for other people? And, I will say again, I just want to go get it. Yeah (Grande). For workers. I have it right here. Does this show up backwards to you I'm not sure?

Grande Lum (51:47): No look, I can read it. I can read it fine here.

Heidi Burgess (51:49): Ok I can't it's backwards for me. It's America's piece. And the first version, was written by Bert Levine, who was a longtime conciliator and regional director. And then the second edition has a bunch of article sec chapters that were added by Grande and anybody who is watching video and they ought read it. But do you have any articles or anything that's shorter and more accessible that people might be interested in reading?

Grande Lum (52:26): Sure. I've written a few op-eds on CRS that I think may be worth looking at, some of them were written with other folks, who were part of CRS as well, that I think capture some of it. A portion of my one chapter of the book was published prior to the books publishing, that was on the work with post 9/11 and south Asians and Muslims and Sikh . It was published in a Texas A&M law review there as well. Others have written some things, Becky Monroe, who is a former acting CRS director, I think wrote a really good law review piece on CRS as well, that I think is worth looking at to. So, but I think you

Heidi Burgess (53:30): If you could send us,

Grande Lum (53:31): I'm happy to send it links

Heidi Burgess (53:32): Links to the op-eds. And I can certainly look up Becky Monroe's piece and also yours on the post 9/11 stuff. If I can't find it, I'll let you know, but I ought to be able to find it.

Grande Lum (53:51): Great. And of course, you know, Wallace Warfield who you talked to and met, I think of, you know, a few years after his death, a book was put together of his articles and I think that's really

Heidi Burgess (54:04): Oh I didn't know about that.

Grande Lum (54:05): Yes... It was a few years back where they put together many of his articles and I think to really understand CRS and to put together some of the theoretical frameworks, I think professor Warfield did a terrific job. And when you read his articles together, he doesn't talk directly about CRS all the time, but he certainly is talking about community conflicts, race, quite often. And I think... his perspective is useful. James Lowy of course, wrote a couple of articles as well that I think are really useful to understanding CRS and this type of work more broadly, more broadly speaking as well.

Heidi Burgess (54:48): Great. All right. Well, I will see what I can do about digging those up. I was a friend and a colleague of Wally's and dearly miss him, but really respect what he did with CRS and George Mason afterwards. He was just wonderful mentor for a whole bunch of people, me included.

Grande Lum (55:11): Yeah. Yeah. I never met him, but I was, I really enjoyed discovering his writings afterwards and certainly just talking to folks that knew him as well and how respected he was, by

Heidi Burgess (55:25): He was a really special guy.

Grande Lum (55:26): Yeah, for sure.

Heidi Burgess (55:29): Oh, Grande this has been wonderful. I really appreciate having this much time to talk with you and appreciate your commitment to the overall project you've been supporting us all the way through in fact kind of started it, and that's just been great and I hope we will be able to continue to work together in a variety of ways going into the future. I wish you great luck with your new endeavor.

Grande Lum (56:01): Thank you, Heidi. I really appreciate that you did this, the oral interviews and the oral history project. I think it was a huge difference. It made it much easier for me to both be the work at CRS later on to write... a second edition of the book. I've really enjoyed having all this time to speaking with you. It helped me think through a number of things that I certainly hope it's helpful to folks... and I do look forward to working with you in... other initiatives as well.

Heidi Burgess (56:36): Well, that's great. We thank you very much and wish you luck, and I'm sure we'll be in touch fairly soon.

Grande Lum (56:43): Ok.

Heidi Burgess (56:44): So thanks.

Grande Lum (56:45): Thanks, Heidi. Ok.

Heidi Burgess (56:47): Talk to you later.

Grande Lum (56:47): Take care. Bye-bye.