Grande Lum -- Part 3

Grande Lum is a former Director of the Community Relations Service, serving in that role from 2012-2016. He is also the Co-author with Bertram Levine of America's Peacemakers: The Community Relations Service and Civil Rights.

There are 4 parts of this interview and a summary: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3, Part 4, and The Summary. This is Part 3.

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https://youtu.be/s1x6uAj9CUo

. Grande Lum (30:28): Yeah, I mean, you know, when desegregation occurred in the public schools in the United States and also changes in university at admittance policy CRS played a significant role from the Boston public schools, where Silke Hansen and others play an important role, and then tried to apply CRS works on applying those lessons because the country saw what happened in Boston, and didn't want that sort of thing to happen as their schools desegregated, whether in Detroit or Los Angeles, or, you know, in other places and CRS plays that role. So depending on what's happening in education, it certainly impacts what CRS is doing at the time. Now, schools today still remain very segregated. There's not... the effort that was happening there. So it does... impact what CRS can ... and what it can and what it actually does with school districts and with university situations. Heidi Burgess (31:39): I was actually thinking back to our interview with Silke about Boston when you said that everything that you do is voluntary. That people aren't being forced to do it. And I was thinking well, in Boston, they sure were. And they sure saw CRS as one of the arms of the enforcers there, but that was early on, in a different time. Grande Lum (32:10): That was a unique situation because, you know, Judge Garrity, is imposing a consent decree and is the court monitor and asked CRS to work in a situation, you know, so yeah, I mean, it was different and I think that's right. Though, you know, I would say what she was doing was incredibly important and really helped. She facilitated and helped organize some of the black, white parent councils. Right. For example, it makes a huge difference in, in the school buildings themselves, right. In... preventing violence from happening in real time, as well. Heidi Burgess (32:57): What about administrative changes? And one of the things that I was curious about, Is if CRS is going into communities with a Republican administration is the assumption that you guys are Republican. And if you're going in with a democratic administration, is the assumption that you're gonna be progressive. Are you assumed to be the same as the administration, or are you seen as independent? Grande Lum (33:33): I think for the most part with parties that know CRS, I don't think there's much difference because they have a working relationship with them. I'm sure there's gonna be the perception or suspicion depending on what party is controlling. The white house has to then if someone from department of justice from CRS shows up, and I think that has to be then worked through right. The person, the community has to trust that the CRS media will work in a nonpartisan, will work in a fashion that doesn't favor, any party over the other, for sure. Heidi Burgess (34:19): Does CRS ever get pressured by the administration to change what it's doing, what it's focusing on or it's procedures, because they don't match up with the philosophy of the administration. Grande Lum (34:35): You know, I can't speak across every administration, I think to the credit of a number of administrations. There hasn't been that issue, right. Because CRS's work is fairly non-political for the most part. I do think what might happen in a specific administration where that administration wants to lean in. I actually would go... to George W. Bush after 9/11, and here's a Republican president and we have what happens on 9/11. And there's a concern by that administration, by that president, about backlash, violence, against people who are Muslim, or who look Muslim. And... to that, administration's credit to that president's credit basically said to CRS, let's make sure to prevent violence. Let's make sure to do what we can so that we don't have harm done to these communities as a backlash way. Grande Lum (35:37): So, and that to me is a very positive example, right? Every administration does set priorities, and we are trying to protect people who may be marginalized or may be discriminated against, and administration should be focused and say, what are you doing on this? You know, how are you? We are going to give you more resources to do something like this. During the Clinton administration, there was the... church burnings in the south, of black churches and CRS was given additional funding and staffing to go work with those communities. And that's up to me, a positive example of, here's a good thing that when more staffing and more budget can be provided to prevent violence, to improve the treatment of minority communities, that's, to me a positive example of wherever the administration is, that good can be done and more help can be provided to specific communities that are under pressure. Heidi Burgess (36:33): What about the flip side? I know there have been times when is budget has been significantly cut. Grande Lum (36:40): Mm-hmm Heidi Burgess (36:40): Is that because everything's getting cut or is that because CRS is singled out as doing work that is unnecessary or unhelpful? Grande Lum (36:53): Yeah, I mean, during the Trump administration, CRS was targeted for elimination, based on the heritage foundation, based on some of these groups, and they did get their budget reduced and... so that is a way of preventing work from getting done here. Right. I don't think that was appropriate or fair... to doing so, but yeah, there could be a negative impact of what an administration values of what money should be spent upon. And there have been certain administrations who have not valued CRS and not understood the great value that it can bring in a nonpartisan, in a fair way to help communities work through issues. No matter, you know... what party is in control. Heidi Burgess (37:48): This is probably wishful thinking. But was there any change after George Floyd? Grande Lum (37:54): I don't, no... What I would say is, you know, at least in talking to some of the folks at CRS... I think there was a desire to, and CRS folks did go into these communities to do positive work. So I never heard any negatives. And I should say of if there was staff available, that that staff should go work and do the good work of CRS. Heidi Burgess (38:20): ... but there was not a budget increase after that. Grande Lum (38:21): But there was not a... budget increase. That's yes. Yeah, that's right. Heidi Burgess (38:27): What about inter agency issues? You talked some about dealing with different parts of justice, were there good, easy relationships within other agencies or were there problems working with other agencies? Grande Lum (38:46): ... I felt like I was very fortunate to have worked with other agencies with the civil rights division with U.S Attorneys, very constructive... very collaborative means. And I think that's terrific. It's a matter of when you show up at a community, you have to be coordinated because... if you talk to somebody say I'm from the department of justice and the guy says, oh, what are you talking about? I just talk to two other people from the department of justice. Right. And you you've gotta be coordinated. So what we would do in that regard, would we have a, if it was a community like Ferguson, where there were a number of department of justice agencies there. There would be a weekly meeting, sort of a coordination meeting, let's just make sure everybody knows where everybody is, what everybody's doing. Grande Lum (39:31): And to be coordinated in that fashion and to make sure, like... what we're doing, doesn't impinge, or if there are intentions... let's deal with them. So that is a hugely important thing to do well. For sure. And certainly, at least historically, there were times when there were greater concerns, right... That's why the CRS was originally in the commerce department. There at the time, some of the folks in the department of justice felt like if... they were, instead of being in commerce they should be in justice, that they could be better coordinated because, but they had less say if it was in commerce. So it does get moved over. LBJ does move CRS over from commerce to department of justice to improve coordination basically. Heidi Burgess (40:20): I'm not sure I ever realized that it started out in commerce. What was the thought process there that seemed so odd? Grande Lum (40:28): The thought was, is because a Southern governor named Luther Hodge was head of commerce. And... the thought was that this had to do, you know, the concern was partly about business and that they would be more trusted. And that's why Leroy Collins, who's a governor in Florida, a white Southern governor is put in charge of CRS... they would be more accepted by white southerners, law enforcement, politicians, if... It came from that way. And the department of justice had a reputation in the south when department of justice came to the south, it was usually to do something that they didn't want. Right (Heidi) And I think that was the reasoning that LBJ had for putting CRS... in the commerce, but that gets changed within a couple of years. Heidi Burgess (41:18): Ok. Yeah. And that was also, I think you were the one who told me that it was originally not going to be called community relation service, but was going to be called the civil rights service or something like that. Grande Lum (41:31): ...It was going to, it originally had something like mediation and conciliation services... like the federal mediation conciliation service for labor management. But there were some who viewed those terms as ... two Uncle Tom-ish that somehow, that term... wasn't strong enough at the time. So that's why community relations service becomes the name of it versus something like community mediation and reconciliation service. Heidi Burgess (42:04): Oh, ok. The next issue we've talked about a lot already, but I'll give you a chance to fill in anything else. Social media. Grande Lum (42:17): Unfortunately I have to make another call. We were scheduled to? I had scheduled until four today. Heidi Burgess (42:23): Oh. I scheduled us for two hours. Grande Lum (42:25): Oh, it was on my calendar my invite. Oh... I'm happy to do another hour here, but can we reschedule, can schedule for another time? Heidi Burgess (42:35): Yeah. Yeah. I will send you an email. Ok (Grande). And I'm sorry, we didn't get our ducks in a row on that one. Grande Lum (42:41): Yeah, no worries. No worries. I thought you wanted two hours, but it was when you sent me the, but it was for one hour. So I. Heidi Burgess (42:48): Oh, Grande Lum (42:48): Yeah. So, I scheduled a couple more calls, but I'm happy to, to do it another time. Heidi Burgess (42:55): All right. We're going to start at social media. I think we might be able to finish in an hour. Ok (Grande). Thank you much Grande Lum (43:00): Thank you. Heidi Burgess (43:01): I'll be in touch. All right. Grande Lum (43:02): Talk to you soon Grande Lum (43:02): Byebye. nde Lum (20:21): It's because there is some concern around prejudice, around discrimination, and we're trying to improve it. We're not trying to prevent it from happening. So that's where I come down, on this very provocative, I think some of the provocative thoughts of Bernie and Jacqueline here... and see I... make it, I'd be curious to what you think about, but I think it's similar to a journalist, right? A journalist is going to look at, write about corruption. They're setting their sights on... a situation, they have to be honest when they write about it, they can't, but they're shining their light on something. To a certain extent I think CRS mediators are shining a light, and they're working as a facilitator, as a mediator in a non-biased fashion, in a non-partisan fashion... in that way. Grande Lum (21:18): With the belief, I think that things will be better for the people involved for the future. And they can ask those questions. How does this benefit those who are being marginalized? How does this benefit the community here and say, is that something that you all can agree to here? So I think it's important, you know, I think... it is work that is necessary to make advancements as a society we advance because we agree out of our free will. Not because we're forced to doing so, right. The creation of CRS is also the first time community mediation is captured in federal legislation, right? Which community mediation out of the sixties and the proponents of that do so because of the belief that people can from an empowerment perspective, that people should be able to resolve their own disputes and necessarily go into a complex Byzantine, legal hierarchical system to resolve their disputes. So I think CRS comes from that perspective that by helping people come to the agreements for their own communities, immigrants, racial minorities, that there is a benefit to a better outcome for them and for society as a whole Heidi Burgess (22:36): Great answer. I have some things that I would love to follow up on later, but there are enough yeah. Off topic that we'll leave them till later. The next question is related and it's about what we were talking about earlier. How has political polarization in the country affected the work of CRS? Grande Lum (23:00): I think we've talked about this, you know, in our earlier meanings, in early meaning as well... I think it it's created, Grande Lum (23:17): More concern because in a politically polarized world... there is this suspicion created of federal government officials. And what side are you on versus perceiving any agency as being one focus on fairness and justice, even though that's what I think a department of justice group like CRS would do. So I think there's more of this gotcha game... where groups are trying to find a way to pin the civil rights division, the U.S Attorney's office, or CRS's, you're being too whatever. And often too, maybe might depend on which administration is in, which presidential administration is there. And I know there's a question coming down the line there. I think I've shared examples of when...at least during the Obama administration, where there were certain extreme right groups who were trying to attack the president by who's a black man by then attacking the attorney general Eric Holder, who's a black man. Grande Lum (24:29): And by attacking CRS as a way of attacking Eric Holder... And seeing that, oh, a community group, they must be doing something to facilitate or foment violence somehow. So these are false accusations that are made. So...there's this gotcha game of trying to see if a federal, you know, a federal agent, a federal employee is doing something that is partisan in some way. I think that's, you know, that's the concern and you know, what I asked this, I do wanna go back for a moment... and talk about what you were saying around what mediators do I think it is hugely important that CRS, that it's mediators and conciliators be perceived as nonpartisan. And so... you do have to be very careful in what you say and what you do, partly because of the perceptions, but also the reality that you have to be trusted by people of all political stripes. Grande Lum (25:33): And you also have to be there as an honest broker, and if you're there to mediate, you're there to mediate. You're not there. You cannot be criticized or accused of favoring one side over the other. I think that at least for a federal agency, a department of justice agency, I do want to be very clear on that. I think CRS cannot afford to be seen perceived or in any concrete or in any actual way, be perceived as favoring one side over the other. I don't think that's, you know, I don't know how this works with... what was in Bernie's and Jacqueline's book. But I think there is a line that is important that you cannot cross. Heidi Burgess (26:16): I think that line is the thing that is so important in that book. And I'm pretty sure, although, as I say, I haven't finished it yet in about three quarters through, but I'm pretty sure I come on out on the other side of the line from where Bernie's coming out, which really surprised me because we've been friends and colleagues and highly respect. I've highly respected him and loved his other books and was surprised that I was coming out so differently on this one. But, keeping with the article that we just wrote, I am very interested in engaging Grande Lum (27:04): Yes. Heidi Burgess (27:05): The other side and learning from it. So I'm looking, I got to finish the book and then I'm gonna call Barry and say, Hey, we need to have a talk. Anyway, I think you were right that we have talked about political polarization before, and we've, we've touched on most of the rest of these, but I want to go back because when I said to you before, I think we've covered this one already, you said. Yeah. But I have something more to say as well. I want to make sure that we've covered everything Grande Lum (27:37): Sounds good. That's great. That's terrific. Heidi Burgess (27:39): Much as we can. The next one's on policing and have there been changes in the nature of police work that have affected CRS Grande Lum (27:51): Absolutely. And I think it's important and the book covers some of this of throughout its history. It certainly has dealt with law enforcement interactions with minority communities and throughout its history has dealt with issues of police shootings, of citizens, of individuals here and how the media's focus on it has changed and as changes over time. And I think it's important to recognize CRS when even when the issue wasn't as much as much focused upon it was working on these issues. It... was putting out publications on the use of force. It was working with police departments that it helped start some of the police organizations, the minority based police organizations like noble, the national organization for black law enforcement. It, so it... Heidi Burgess (28:52): CRS helped start that Grande Lum (28:53): It absolutely helped convene and helped in the creation of it. For sure there have been some folks who are very involved in CRS, like Lee, brown and others who ... played critical roles in noble, as well. So it has played a role in this and we're actually able to... help reduce the number, statistically reduce the number of deaths and violent encounters, between police and minority communities over time. Now, clearly it comes back, and has never gone away. It's just because more exposure and more focus has been on it because video was captured, or, a particularly heinous incident is... focused upon. So what I think CRS is able to do depends upon it. It does how CRS is engaged, whether it's engaged, at what level is engaged. I think the larger culture and the larger way in which a community and a society views, it does impact, you know, what CRS does or can do in those situations. I don't think it changes the fact that they'll be engaged and that they'll...work to see what's possible, but what's possible is often determined by culture and the context and the situation. Heidi Burgess (30:19): Right. Hmm. Same question for education. Grande Lum (30:26): mm-hmm . Grande Lum (30:28): Yeah, I mean, you know, when desegregation occurred in the public schools in the United States and also changes in university at admittance policy CRS played a significant role from the Boston public schools, where Silke Hansen and others play an important role, and then tried to apply CRS works on applying those lessons because the country saw what happened in Boston, and didn't want that sort of thing to happen as their schools desegregated, whether in Detroit or Los Angeles, or, you know, in other places and CRS plays that role. So depending on what's happening in education, it certainly impacts what CRS is doing at the time. Now, schools today still remain very segregated. There's not... the effort that was happening there. So it does... impact what CRS can ... and what it can and what it actually does with school districts and with university situations. Heidi Burgess (31:39): I was actually thinking back to our interview with Silke about Boston when you said that everything that you do is voluntary. That people aren't being forced to do it. And I was thinking well, in Boston, they sure were. And they sure saw CRS as one of the arms of the enforcers there, but that was early on, in a different time. Grande Lum (32:10): That was a unique situation because, you know, Judge Garrity, is imposing a consent decree and is the court monitor and asked CRS to work in a situation, you know, so yeah, I mean, it was different and I think that's right. Though, you know, I would say what she was doing was incredibly important and really helped. She facilitated and helped organize some of the black, white parent councils. Right. For example, it makes a huge difference in, in the school buildings themselves, right. In... preventing violence from happening in real time, as well. Heidi Burgess (32:57): What about administrative changes? And one of the things that I was curious about, Is if CRS is going into communities with a Republican administration is the assumption that you guys are Republican. And if you're going in with a democratic administration, is the assumption that you're gonna be progressive. Are you assumed to be the same as the administration, or are you seen as independent? Grande Lum (33:33): I think for the most part with parties that know CRS, I don't think there's much difference because they have a working relationship with them. I'm sure there's gonna be the perception or suspicion depending on what party is controlling. The white house has to then if someone from department of justice from CRS shows up, and I think that has to be then worked through right. The person, the community has to trust that the CRS media will work in a nonpartisan, will work in a fashion that doesn't favor, any party over the other, for sure. Heidi Burgess (34:19): Does CRS ever get pressured by the administration to change what it's doing, what it's focusing on or it's procedures, because they don't match up with the philosophy of the administration. Grande Lum (34:35): You know, I can't speak across every administration, I think to the credit of a number of administrations. There hasn't been that issue, right. Because CRS's work is fairly non-political for the most part. I do think what might happen in a specific administration where that administration wants to lean in. I actually would go... to George W. Bush after 9/11, and here's a Republican president and we have what happens on 9/11. And there's a concern by that administration, by that president, about backlash, violence, against people who are Muslim, or who look Muslim. And... to that, administration's credit to that president's credit basically said to CRS, let's make sure to prevent violence. Let's make sure to do what we can so that we don't have harm done to these communities as a backlash way. Grande Lum (35:37): So, and that to me is a very positive example, right? Every administration does set priorities, and we are trying to protect people who may be marginalized or may be discriminated against, and administration should be focused and say, what are you doing on this? You know, how are you? We are going to give you more resources to do something like this. During the Clinton administration, there was the... church burnings in the south, of black churches and CRS was given additional funding and staffing to go work with those communities. And that's up to me, a positive example of, here's a good thing that when more staffing and more budget can be provided to prevent violence, to improve the treatment of minority communities, that's, to me a positive example of wherever the administration is, that good can be done and more help can be provided to specific communities that are under pressure. Heidi Burgess (36:33): What about the flip side? I know there have been times when is budget has been significantly cut. Grande Lum (36:40): Mm-hmm Heidi Burgess (36:40): Is that because everything's getting cut or is that because CRS is singled out as doing work that is unnecessary or unhelpful? Grande Lum (36:53): Yeah, I mean, during the Trump administration, CRS was targeted for elimination, based on the heritage foundation, based on some of these groups, and they did get their budget reduced and... so that is a way of preventing work from getting done here. Right. I don't think that was appropriate or fair... to doing so, but yeah, there could be a negative impact of what an administration values of what money should be spent upon. And there have been certain administrations who have not valued CRS and not understood the great value that it can bring in a nonpartisan, in a fair way to help communities work through issues. No matter, you know... what party is in control. Heidi Burgess (37:48): This is probably wishful thinking. But was there any change after George Floyd? Grande Lum (37:54): I don't, no... What I would say is, you know, at least in talking to some of the folks at CRS... I think there was a desire to, and CRS folks did go into these communities to do positive work. So I never heard any negatives. And I should say of if there was staff available, that that staff should go work and do the good work of CRS. Heidi Burgess (38:20): ... but there was not a budget increase after that. Grande Lum (38:21): But there was not a... budget increase. That's yes. Yeah, that's right. Heidi Burgess (38:27): What about inter agency issues? You talked some about dealing with different parts of justice, were there good, easy relationships within other agencies or were there problems working with other agencies? Grande Lum (38:46): ... I felt like I was very fortunate to have worked with other agencies with the civil rights division with U.S Attorneys, very constructive... very collaborative means. And I think that's terrific. It's a matter of when you show up at a community, you have to be coordinated because... if you talk to somebody say I'm from the department of justice and the guy says, oh, what are you talking about? I just talk to two other people from the department of justice. Right. And you you've gotta be coordinated. So what we would do in that regard, would we have a, if it was a community like Ferguson, where there were a number of department of justice agencies there. There would be a weekly meeting, sort of a coordination meeting, let's just make sure everybody knows where everybody is, what everybody's doing. Grande Lum (39:31): And to be coordinated in that fashion and to make sure, like... what we're doing, doesn't impinge, or if there are intentions... let's deal with them. So that is a hugely important thing to do well. For sure. And certainly, at least historically, there were times when there were greater concerns, right... That's why the CRS was originally in the commerce department. There at the time, some of the folks in the department of justice felt like if... they were, instead of being in commerce they should be in justice, that they could be better coordinated because, but they had less say if it was in commerce. So it does get moved over. LBJ does move CRS over from commerce to department of justice to improve coordination basically. Heidi Burgess (40:20): I'm not sure I ever realized that it started out in commerce. What was the thought process there that seemed so odd? Grande Lum (40:28): The thought was, is because a Southern governor named Luther Hodge was head of commerce. And... the thought was that this had to do, you know, the concern was partly about business and that they would be more trusted. And that's why Leroy Collins, who's a governor in Florida, a white Southern governor is put in charge of CRS... they would be more accepted by white southerners, law enforcement, politicians, if... It came from that way. And the department of justice had a reputation in the south when department of justice came to the south, it was usually to do something that they didn't want. Right (Heidi) And I think that was the reasoning that LBJ had for putting CRS... in the commerce, but that gets changed within a couple of years. Heidi Burgess (41:18): Ok. Yeah. And that was also, I think you were the one who told me that it was originally not going to be called community relation service, but was going to be called the civil rights service or something like that. Grande Lum (41:31): ...It was going to, it originally had something like mediation and conciliation services... like the federal mediation conciliation service for labor management. But there were some who viewed those terms as ... two Uncle Tom-ish that somehow, that term... wasn't strong enough at the time. So that's why community relations service becomes the name of it versus something like community mediation and reconciliation service. Heidi Burgess (42:04): Oh, ok. The next issue we've talked about a lot already, but I'll give you a chance to fill in anything else. Social media. Grande Lum (42:17): Unfortunately I have to make another call. We were scheduled to? I had scheduled until four today. Heidi Burgess (42:23): Oh. I scheduled us for two hours. Grande Lum (42:25): Oh, it was on my calendar my invite. Oh... I'm happy to do another hour here, but can we reschedule, can schedule for another time? Heidi Burgess (42:35): Yeah. Yeah. I will send you an email. Ok (Grande). And I'm sorry, we didn't get our ducks in a row on that one. Grande Lum (42:41): Yeah, no worries. No worries. I thought you wanted two hours, but it was when you sent me the, but it was for one hour. So I. Heidi Burgess (42:48): Oh, Grande Lum (42:48): Yeah. So, I scheduled a couple more calls, but I'm happy to, to do it another time. Heidi Burgess (42:55): All right. We're going to start at social media. I think we might be able to finish in an hour. Ok (Grande). Thank you much Grande Lum (43:00): Thank you. Heidi Burgess (43:01): I'll be in touch. All right. Grande Lum (43:02): Talk to you soon Grande Lum (43:02): Byebye.